Linus on "acting professionally" • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#321

Post by vacri » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #162

vacri wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not meant in an ironic sense, then why post the comments? You have people complaining that someone isn't acting professionally... and then not acting professionally. It serves to bolster Torvalds' point, not weaken it. If the response is 'context', then it should also be pointed out that we only ever see the slimmest speck of his emails from the list and we never see them in the context in which they're prese…

Again acting professionally, isn't their job, they are commenting on thread on Slashdot, not on a Github issue or LK mailing list, which is his implied business (as in things that keeps him busy around the day and that he strives to prefect professionally). It's true we might miss some of the context by not being there, that said, from his previous discussions you can draw a lot of observation that help clarify the c…

One of the links isn't about professionalism, it's about politeness, and the author is not being polite in return. The 'jobness' of the comment is irrelevant.

The other comment spends the first half in character assassination and really gives us no particular reason to consider that author particularly versed in how to behave professionally.

The thing is, if you stop and actually read how Torvalds presents himself, it's not just spewing forth expletives. There is a lot of consideration and thought behind what he says. It's just that this hoopla erupts because occasionally an uptight person makes a complete meal of things by publicising one of these comments out of the greater context. It's pretty much textbook yellow journalism.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#322

Post by gregd » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

jakobe wrote: post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

I tend to try to live by The Four Agreements:

Be Impeccable With Your Words

Don't Take Anything Personally

Don't Make Assumptions

Always Do Your Best

This is from an excellent book called, "The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom" by Don Ruiz.

We could all do with a lot more of number two, don't take anything personally.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#323

Post by fantnn » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:12 PM UTC

doctorfoo wrote: post #254

claudius wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd not take intelligence over ‘being pleasant’? I tend to enjoy the company of an intelligent asshole more than that of a ‘pleasant’ idiot any day.

There is a happy medium :) But in general, I'd always choose (true, sincerely meant) pleasantness and kindness over intelligence. Though, if a kernel developer is required, then maybe intelligence is the more useful, giving rise to this current situation...

and that happy medium varies from person to person you dense jackass, that was the entire fucking point of the rant

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#324

Post by corresation » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

Leepic wrote: post #318

corresation wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent t…

>Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Actually, expecting a moderate appreciation of effort isn't by any stretch of the imagination "social expectation". Calling my code shit because it doesn't compile is fine but repeatedly doing so and getting away can only be interpreted as a power play - the very act of using your influence as a leverage to bring your subjective opinio…

but repeatedly doing so and getting away can only be interpreted as a power play

And what is repeatedly submitting code that doesn't compile (wasting many people's time)?

In this situation Linus absolutely and quite rightly holds 99% of the power, and my point was that the social obligation trump card is being played as a way of trying to equalize the field, and it just isn't useful or valuable in this scenario (the other poster quite rightly points out that social graces are the rule when dealing outside of a particular group -- mostly when you're trying to curry favour -- which of course is true).

There is recurring sentiment that Linus needs to soothe all egos and comfort all comers because every submission is a selfless act of heroics that Linux desperately needs. We all know that isn't true: People want their contribs accepted into the kernel because such is a great professional accomplishment. A part of that accomplishment is making it past Linus, and if you can't then try harder next time.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#325

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

The real reason that everyone should embrace/appreciate Linus' abrasiveness is this. Imagine what Linus' job as kernel boss would be like if people thought it was okay to submit crap-quality/untested patches to him (hint, it would be impossible). Imagine how long it would take for Linux kernel quality to dive off a cliff if quality were dependent wholly upon Linus' capacity to review and fix mistakes. Linus catching a cold unexpectedly could cause the whole thing to fall apart. Therefore, he needs, we all need for there to be some impetus to prevent folks from submitting crap.

Also, he isn't always abrasive, usually just if things don't go right.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#326

Post by nl » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

ricw wrote: post #64

nl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've obviously never worked in an office, or you have taken a big step away from reality. Perhaps you have never worked in a good office, on a good team where people respect each other. These people are kernel developers, not 4 year olds. If they commit code that is fucking stupid, they should be called fucking stupid for it. Why? It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be…

Yes it can. Direct criticism leads to more honesty, leads to a more productive work environment. Just grow some balls and learn to deal with direct criticism..

I appreciate direct criticism. Fortunately I also have enough balls to refuse to stand for people being rude to me.

Politeness does not mean standing for incompetence.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#327

Post by riggins » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I love what Linus is saying here. I feel like some people haven't really internalized the lesson of the schoolyard saying 'sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'.

I think that saying is deeper than it seems at first blush. It's a reminder that we are 100% in control of how we react to words. We choose how we react to words. You can always choose. Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#328

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

corresation wrote: post #224

DanBC wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent t…

the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control

Yeah, control about being a decent human being, if anything, but not about what goes into the kernel. So what's your point?

And how is talking about "thin skin" not also an attempt at controlling people, in the opposite direction? Pah.

Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck.

Linus is put into place, every day, every minute, by people being even more blunt about even harder stuff while remaining respectful. Just like a turtle is put in its place by a fox. And if you don't like that on behalf of Linus, well.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#329

Post by 6d0debc071 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

> Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team.

There are some extremely dedicated people who are prepared to put up with his tantrums to work on the kernel. I'm not sure that's the same thing as knowing how to run an effective team. He's at the top of a hierarchy but he doesn't run most of the activities in it, he doesn't even interact in a meaningful way with most of the people in it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#330

Post by KaeseEs » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 2:19 PM UTC

robmclarty wrote: post #319

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I think you're missing the really great point Linus is making: that we (as humans) can find a way to work together on a common goal despite our differences. Linus obviously has some differences, and yet is managing to pull off this amazing project that affects so many of us. Forget business and software development, the world needs to learn how to work this way, because there's no way the entire world will ever "be p…

"Being professional" is not about all agreeing to the same ideology, but consistent standards of behavior are the core of professionalism. If we cannot agree that screaming "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" and calling people brain-damaged and "worthless piece[s] of shit" (as Linus has done elsewhere; the specific example in the OP isn't as bad) is inconsonant with professionalism, the concept has lost all meaning. There are ways to express disagreement or that someone's actions are wrong without namecalling, screaming, profanity (which is not always problematic in many environments, but can get off the rails) or dressing them down publicly.

Linus isn't a drill sergeant and his poor imitation thereof when he power trips doesn't get his point across any better than just saying "X was a bad decision, don't do it again for reasons Y and Z".