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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#111

Post by sz4kerto »

fosap wrote: post #63
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

And that is the concept of the "benevolent dictator". If he is a dick, incompetent or does technical stuff you don't like, fork. IMO the best way to run FOSS project, but of course there are others.

Linux is not just code. It's a brand, a community, whatever. As people on HN should very well know, success is mostly about execution and luck - lot of people have very good ideas. The reason behind Linux being so successful is only partly attributable to it's technical merit (well, from the technical standpoint it didn't have anything too exciting when it started to have traction). It had to have all luck, good moments, industrial/social situation what eventually made it successful.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#112

Post by pmelendez »

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

> "He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years"

Yes, Linux has remarkable importance mostly because its installed base (IMHO it doesn't offer any innovation from an OS perspective, other that being stable enough and free)

However, that doesn't give Linus a free card to be abusive and rude. Yes, not being polite and being insulting is indeed being unprofessional, there are ways to say things and in most cases insults is the wrong path.

"If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done"

Yeah, Romans and Egyptians knew how to get shit done too, but we call that slavery in these days, so it is not precisely a good thing.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#114

Post by groby_b »

Karn wrote: post #46

I'm glad Linus isn't budging on this one. As soon as you start considering how not to hurt someone's feelings, you're putting speed bumps in the paths of your thoughts. If something is fucking stupid, then someone needs to say exactly that, not "That's a good idea, but it seems to me and my mealy mouth that such and such may be another way of doing it...?" The fact that the hacker community is full of mean gits is no…

There's nothing wrong with "That's a really bad idea, and here's why". There's everything wrong with "THAT IDEA IS FUCKING STUPID. YOU'RE SUCH AN IDIOT".

Do you really think the only way to communicate a mistake is like this: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 ?

And Linus is perfectly capable of giving a more reasoned response while still being direct: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/99 (same thread, Linus' reply to a reasoned response from yelled at developer)

Still pretty direct, but gone are the insults. Nobody has been asking for a sugar coating, but simply for Linus to stop being personally abusive.

Yes, people make mistakes. Really stupid mistakes. But if you think they're idiots, don't accept their contributions. If you don't think they're idiots, why call them that just because you can't control your anger?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#115

Post by coldcode »

Linus can do whatever he wants because of what he does and how good he is at it. I'm just glad I don't have to work with him. It's possible to be honest and truthful and not be an asshole about it. It's just not possible for him.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#116

Post by Dylan16807 »

djm_ wrote: post #59
claudius wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

>she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it. I feel sorry for her and you haven't even found her yet.

If you make a ridiculous decision and go all the way to implementation without thinking it through, you objectively should feel extremely dumb about it. That means the feedback loops in your brain are working correctly. I feel sorry for anyone who has a systemic inability to learn impulse control.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#117

Post by vacri »

valleyer wrote: post #82
vacri wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely. It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. It's understood in this environment that that's how the story goes - the excerpts people see of 'linus being rude again' are tut-tutted by a bunch of people who've never read a single other message o…

It’s not as black and white as you make it out to be. On one end of the spectrum, we have the inane “compliment sandwich”. On the other, we have Linus saying “your code is shit”. In the middle, we have professional yet effective criticism. Something like, “Sorry, we’re not going to take this code — it’s too half-baked and exposes some serious security vulnerabilities.”

And yet your halfway comment still contains an insult - 'half-baked'.

I was using the 'compliment sandwich' as a shorthand for reviewing all the commentary to make sure it's pleasant or polite. That stuff does take effort and time, particularly if you aren't intimately familiar with the other party and have to generalise it to the generic person. I've done a hell of a lot of support in my time and this is abundantly clear to me. There are even people who perform better when you swear around them, because they don't feel like they have to control their language.

Couched phrasing takes effort - and Torvalds is one of the few technocrats who still gets his hands dirty in the trenches.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#118

Post by scrrr »

I'd rather have my feelings hurt in exchange for an honest opinion than to hear worthless words that sound nice. Always.

And I'd always prefer a competent asshole boss to a friendly guy that doesn't know how to do his job.

Personally, I think too much niceness and, by extension, political correctness is bad for honesty, truth, effectiveness and, ultimately, for culture. The culture in the office and the culture as a whole.

We shouldn't expect to go through life with everyone being nice all the time. It's not realistic. Tough love is good. I don't want to live in an environment of friendly bullshit.

And thus I am happy that Linus is the way he is. A very accomplished man that doesn't care about your precious political correctness.

(I assume Steve Jobs was similar in that regard.)

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#120

Post by Ras_ »

CrLf wrote: post #45

http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2 This is the start of the thread. It is pretty obvious that no one is being serious about actual violence. It's just banter. Harmless (and not at all unhealty) banter. The type of communication in the LKML has always been straight to the point and without unnecessary diplomacy. Sometimes it reads as assertiveness, sometimes it reads as rudeness. The point is that…

Few posts later, what might be the crux of the matter (first four paragraphs): http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137391223711946&w=2

Linus really has only a few tools at hand to restrict otherwise almost unlimited access he is providing. Instead of usual secretaries filtering and rationing access, he has to be blunt whenever he encounters inconsiderate time wasting. Like he said previously, occasional swearing shortens the e-mail queue. If Linus resorted to hand holding he would never get anything else done, because there is virtually endless demand for it.

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