Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#151

Post by 30thElement » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:25 PM UTC

benjamincburns wrote: post #148

Someone wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only between the air and the inside of the tube? Instead of a 100m train with air flowing around it, you get air at length of the track moving along the inside of the tube at the same speed. I know as good as nothing of aerodynamics, but even if you get the latter flow perfectly laminar, I doubt it is a net win, as the contact area is 1000 times as large or so. But educate me. Also, when you move cars into and out of…

I know next to nothing as well, but I think that perfectly laminar flow would be worst case. However if the inside of the tube had divots like a golf ball, the slower-moving turbulent vortices would push the faster-moving laminar stream away from the walls, so that the boundary layer doesn't impact the velocity of the central air column nearly as much. Again: "I think ..." I'd be happy if someone who knows more would…

Turbulent flow would increase the overall drag in this situation. You're essentially taking energy from the free-flowing middle of the pipe and using it to drag more air along the wall. The reason why turbulence helps a golf ball is because it decreases flow separation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_separation. Separated flow makes a ridiculous amount of drag, and it's worth the extra skin drag to keep the flow attached.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#152

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #53

rayiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is more "secret sauce" in Tesla than in SpaceX. SpaceX is doing great implementations of pretty conservative designs. In any case, both are "product" companies and benefit from patents less than "design" companies. Contrast SpaceX with Mojave Aerospace Ventures (the investment vehicle that owns the Spaceship One IP developed by Scaled Composites).

Everyone has criticized you based on how great SpaceX is. I'll go the other way. Tesla at its heart is "put a ton of batteries which were developed by other companies into an electric motor that drives a car." People have been trying this formula for over a century. Tesla happened to do it when battery technology was just good enough to work, with really good styling.

Think about gasoline cars. People have been building those for ages, and it's not exactly difficult to make a car: you just put a frame, an internal combustion engine, and a steering system together, right? And yet it's still not that easy to make a well selling automobile.

The number of new automakers who enter the market over time and do very well is very small.

The thing about Tesla is not that they managed to make an electric car, the important thing is they managed to make one with all of the right tradeoffs and design choices to be a car that people actually wanted to buy. That's a big deal even for conventional automobiles.

Moreover, Tesla has done the most important thing possible with electric cars: they've made them no longer a joke. That will make a much bigger difference in the future decades regardless of whether Tesla continues to succeed or not. Now that electric cars are in many people's eyes a legitimate, and even perhaps enviable, vehicle to own people will start evaluating them on the merits and increasingly choosing to buy them. Which will lead to more and more successful electric car models and companies and a snowball effect in terms of the amount of cumulative profits from electric car sales which will get plowed back into R&D for electric car development. All of which is an absurdly huge win for electric vehicles.

Now, it's not as though Musk did something absurdly special with Tesla (heck, he didn't even found the company), but there's a strong argument he didn't do so with SpaceX either. The Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 are not technological marvels, they're simply, practical sensible designs well-executed. The same could be said of the Tesla vehicles. However, today it seems like simple practicality well-executed is hard to come by in most industries, and he deserves a lot of credit for putting his money and time on the line and staying the course.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#153

Post by joonix » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #149

drpgq wrote: post #2

I'm always surprised that more billionaires don't try interesting off the wall projects when they have so much money. What's the fun of having it, if you can't have the occasional mad scientist moment.

In Australia we have Clive Palmer. He's building a replica Titanic and a mechatronic Jurassic Park. And now has his own Political party named after himself with candidates in every seat in the country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Palmer_(businessman)

I don't see how these projects serve humanity.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#154

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #137

non-sense wrote: post #4

Classy! https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/356779314043305985 "I really hate patents unless critical to company survival. Will publish Hyperloop as open source."

I hate most patents as well, but given that we've recently switched to a "first to file" system here in the US, if this has patentable components (which it seems like it would) it would probably be prudent for him to file patents on it (at least within the one year grace period after disclosing the system in public), even if just to turn around and do some sort of public promise not to enforce. Of course, I'm sure he…

First to file only matters when someone invents in secret. Public is public, won't that block any other patent attempts?

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#155

Post by cpeterso » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

drpgq wrote: post #2

I'm always surprised that more billionaires don't try interesting off the wall projects when they have so much money. What's the fun of having it, if you can't have the occasional mad scientist moment.

Science fiction author David Brin has some interesting suggestions for philanthropists looking to create a legacy, such as building a third-world university system, financing a freelance manned mission to Mars, or funding whistleblowers.

http://www.davidbrin.com/eon.html

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#156

Post by Dylan16807 » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #77

When I read PG's essay earlier today, I thought of hyperloop when I read this footnote: "There may even be an inverse correlation between launch magnitude and success. The only launches I remember are famous flops like the Segway and Google Wave. Wave is a particularly alarming example, because I think it was actually a great idea that was killed partly by its overdone launch." I can actually recall the launch of som…

I have not seen a single mention of hyperloop outside a couple articles on HN. Are you sure there's a lot of hype? Where is it?

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#157

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:47 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #85

TheAnimus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly O/T. A buddy of mine was saying last night that his lady suggested looking at a hair regrowth product, on inspecting the packaging and marketing material he found the wonderful claim: "Up-to 4 times more effective than a placebo in clinical testing"

When (real) clinical trials are constructed against placebo, the statistical testing is constructed accordingly. If you were comparing against an existing drug, for instance, you might be testing to show it's equal-to or equal-or-better-than (perhaps your new drug is cheaper, or works on a different metabolic pathway, or has fewer side effects, that make it worth adding to the formulary if it otherwise has equal effe…

You know, upon thinking about it, I'm not sure that many (or even most) clinical trials use one-sided testing. It makes sense to do so, and would increase power for the particular side chosen, but I can't recall ever seeing it in a paper.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#158

Post by elteto » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 9:56 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #53

rayiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is more "secret sauce" in Tesla than in SpaceX. SpaceX is doing great implementations of pretty conservative designs. In any case, both are "product" companies and benefit from patents less than "design" companies. Contrast SpaceX with Mojave Aerospace Ventures (the investment vehicle that owns the Spaceship One IP developed by Scaled Composites).

Everyone has criticized you based on how great SpaceX is. I'll go the other way. Tesla at its heart is "put a ton of batteries which were developed by other companies into an electric motor that drives a car." People have been trying this formula for over a century. Tesla happened to do it when battery technology was just good enough to work, with really good styling.

It is obviously not just that. You just simply don't put together four wheels with motors and a battery pack and call it a car. Forgetting about everything inside (interior design, user interaction, fancy touchscreens, etc) and looking at it from a point of systems integration, it is really hard to design good suspension systems, optimize the aerodynamics and tune the dynamics of the system to have good handling on a broad set of road conditions. Tesla got it right and the big auto makers will eventually get it right too, but by no means is an easy task.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#159

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 10:04 PM UTC

onebaddude wrote: post #5

non-sense wrote: post #4

Classy! https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/356779314043305985 "I really hate patents unless critical to company survival. Will publish Hyperloop as open source."

> "I really hate patents unless critical to company survival" Isn't "critical to company survival" the same defensive argument that every patent holder uses?

Many companies use patents as a matter of course, whether it's critical to their business or not.

Re: Elon Musk to publish hyperloop design by August

#160

Post by wissler » Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 10:16 PM UTC

moomin wrote: post #132

wissler wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rare that the creative types end up being billionaires. Note that even Steve Jobs was kicked out of his own company, and then later only barely squeaked into the CEO slot, and only because the company was about dead anyway. He'd never have gotten the job if Skulley hadn't screwed things up quite so bad.

Yes, although I feel the need to point out Jobs wasn't the genius behind Apple in the early years, it was Wozniak. Different time, different man.

I think Jobs is definitely a creative type, he had a clear and distinct vision that went beyond what most CEO's would ever dream of let alone approve to drive resources into.

Being a creative type does not necessarily mean being an engineer.