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Why I won't speak at women-only events

guardian.co.uk

111–120 of 136 posts

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#111

She nailed it: it's a waste of my time to be invisible to half the people I need to talk to. The danger with women-only events is that they become perceived as a ghetto. By opening the doors to all, the entire community has a voice, which is as it needs to be if women are to be full, mainstream members of tech communities. There's a place for "safe spaces" if people are sharing extremely personal stories (e.g. sexual…

There's a place for "safe spaces" if people are sharing extremely personal stories (e.g. sexual assault, legal issues), but those tend to be done best as small groups anyway - it's a lot harder for a 1000 person auditorium to be a true "safe space".

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there are certain categories of behavior that you would be far less likely to see at an all-female convention than one with men and women. Sexual assault isn't the only thing women worry about— there's a lot more subtle stuff out there that flies right over the head of regular, non-terrible dudes. See some of the stuff Cherie Priest and other ladies in the SF community have posted about lately.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#112
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very fair point. I pointed them out mostly because these are "celebrities" in the tech world that you could easily find giving talks at various venues. Real people who get real work done tend to not have time for such nonsense :) I could/should have noted Mayer only because I consider her to be one of the most influential people in the (FTSE equivalent mentioned by Parmer) NASDAQ. While the jury is still out on her t…

I think you're still missing my point. A management drone, or at least a more or less non-techie, prognosticating about cultural issues in tech, is almost meaningless other than maybe simple P.R. "we care about diversity" and such. Unless you have techies in the executive suite, the answer to techie problems is not going to come from the executive suite, or at least not any more likely than any other random unqualifi…

I don't disagree and I think the only fair balance is to have stronger technology-oriented personalities at the table for balance to be achieved.

I think without engineers or at the very least representatives that can be the true voice of the engineers any company is doomed to produce waste and a disconnect between what is, what can be, and what isn't.

My point is management drones love to talk, and techies by a large majority are much more comfortable staying out of the executive suite and staying in the labs. Until a balance occurs, the mismatch will always be present.

I think this is more of a cultural divide issue than a gender one, however.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen feminists publicly accuse men of being closeted gays to explain "an otherwise inexplicable hatred of women".

I've seen men publicly accuse feminists of being lesbians to explain "an otherwise inexplicable hatred of men." You're not going to get very far towards any kind of understanding by taking the least worthwhile arguments made by a group of people and projecting that belief on everyone else. That dog won't hunt and it just looks silly.

What's the purpose of this comment? I obviously don't think all feminists walk around saying that. I was simply explaining why that particular shaming tactic was included in the list above.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Become perceived as a ghetto"? I go to plenty of mainstream tech events. But I also go to a gay geek event every month. Is that "ghettoing"? No. It's a fun night out with people who share both interests and sexual orientation. I don't see why this is such a big deal.

I don't personally see it as a big deal or a problem. As a straight guy, I probably wouldn't attend, seeing as it's not intended to be an event for me (although I would if I were invited by a friend). I was mainly referring to "women only" of conference scale. I'm sure they are useful for networking and comparing notes (e.g. which companies are sexist, which companies promote women into leadership). But since most of…

Incidentally, we welcome all people to the gay geek events. The original Girl Geek Dinners had a "men can come if they are invited by a female attendee" policy which worked reasonably well in ensuring that it didn't become ghettoised, but that it remained majority women.

Incidentally, the original Girl Geek Dinners in London was created precisely after Sarah Blow, the woman who started it, went to a mainstream geek event and had someone just flat out presume that she was a marketing/PR girl rather than a developer because she was young, blonde and female. The point of them was to have a place to grump and grumble and have a night out where that was pretty much guaranteed not to happen. It was always hoped that it would be in addition to mainstream rather than gender-specific events.

I don't think it's a choice between women going only to women-only events and women avoiding them as "ghettoising". As I said, I go to gay geeks one (or sometimes two) nights a month. There's plenty of other days for other events.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#115

The reason I don't listen to women in tech presentations: 1. I'm basically not allowed to voice an opinion that isn't completely aligned with the feminist status quo (I believe in equality, fuck me right). 2. I'd rather learn how to build a better emberjs app. Or learn more about thorium. 3. Unlike the vast majority of problems, there are few concrete steps to be taken to correct the imbalances that do exist. Edit: I…

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

Lazy asshole.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally see it as a big deal or a problem. As a straight guy, I probably wouldn't attend, seeing as it's not intended to be an event for me (although I would if I were invited by a friend). I was mainly referring to "women only" of conference scale. I'm sure they are useful for networking and comparing notes (e.g. which companies are sexist, which companies promote women into leadership). But since most of…

Incidentally, we welcome all people to the gay geek events. The original Girl Geek Dinners had a "men can come if they are invited by a female attendee" policy which worked reasonably well in ensuring that it didn't become ghettoised, but that it remained majority women. Incidentally, the original Girl Geek Dinners in London was created precisely after Sarah Blow, the woman who started it, went to a mainstream geek e…

It was always hoped that it would be in addition to mainstream rather than gender-specific events.

That makes sense.

Special events for specific sub-communities is good. And participating in the broader community culture (and criticizing / opposing it when necessary) is also good.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#117
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still missing my point. A management drone, or at least a more or less non-techie, prognosticating about cultural issues in tech, is almost meaningless other than maybe simple P.R. "we care about diversity" and such. Unless you have techies in the executive suite, the answer to techie problems is not going to come from the executive suite, or at least not any more likely than any other random unqualifi…

I don't disagree and I think the only fair balance is to have stronger technology-oriented personalities at the table for balance to be achieved. I think without engineers or at the very least representatives that can be the true voice of the engineers any company is doomed to produce waste and a disconnect between what is, what can be, and what isn't. My point is management drones love to talk, and techies by a larg…

"stronger technology-oriented personalities at the table"

Women Techies dream team version 0.001:

Limor Fried, Jeri Ellsworth, Radia Perlman (noobs probably don't know who she is... hint... Spanning Tree Protocol and a epic 90s book titled "Interconnections"). "the table" needs techies like those three women, not some famous bean counters.

I would much rather have my daughter look up to those three (or about a bazillion others) than, say, "Job Destroyer Carly"

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#118
post #49

The reason I don't listen to women in tech presentations: 1. I'm basically not allowed to voice an opinion that isn't completely aligned with the feminist status quo (I believe in equality, fuck me right). 2. I'd rather learn how to build a better emberjs app. Or learn more about thorium. 3. Unlike the vast majority of problems, there are few concrete steps to be taken to correct the imbalances that do exist. Edit: I…

1. I'm basically not allowed to voice an opinion that isn't completely aligned with the feminist status quo (I believe in equality, fuck me right). Many people not involved with feminist groups often think feminists think the same about everything. Which shows they know nothing about actual disagreements within feminists groups. Just look up transexual issues & feminism. That's a big source of disagreement right ther…

"Not all feminists are like that" is an intellectually lazy argument. Of course not all feminists agree. That doesn't matter in the slightest when I have feminists (who I count as friends, no less) telling me that I have no right to have an opinion on gender equality because I'm a white middle class male. "Privilege" and "Patriarchy" is shaming language used by even the meekist feminist (and again, said by people who actually like me) to make me feel bad for being born the way I am - a white male who wants to make a comfortable living. Anytime I make a comment about this topic, the response I get is what I imagine women used to get in Victorian era england; "Aww, that's sweet, now sit down, shut up and let the women talk."

I don't oppress women. Women oppress me. And pointing that out makes me the asshole.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a 'single' status quo, but if you question and/or debate the existence or definition of certain articles of feminist faith such as 'patriarchy' or 'rape culture' or various statistics about the relative status of women versus men, watch out.

> debate the existence or definition of certain articles of feminist faith such as 'patriarchy' or 'rape culture' This is not a debate in good faith. If you come to the table with no previous knowledge about anything and demand to be heard, why should people waste time with bringing you up to speed? The vast majority of the times this happens it ends up in moving the goal posts.

Why is this debate not in good faith? Because they disagree with you? Assuming they have no previous knowledge about anything solely because they disagree with you is arrogant and lazy. Don't engage in an exchange of ideas, just paint them as stupid and ignorant and move on, firm in your unchallenged convictions.

This point of view you harbor is WHY there can be no debate in good faith.

Re: Why I won't speak at women-only events

#120
post #49

The reason I don't listen to women in tech presentations: 1. I'm basically not allowed to voice an opinion that isn't completely aligned with the feminist status quo (I believe in equality, fuck me right). 2. I'd rather learn how to build a better emberjs app. Or learn more about thorium. 3. Unlike the vast majority of problems, there are few concrete steps to be taken to correct the imbalances that do exist. Edit: I…

1. I'm basically not allowed to voice an opinion that isn't completely aligned with the feminist status quo (I believe in equality, fuck me right). Many people not involved with feminist groups often think feminists think the same about everything. Which shows they know nothing about actual disagreements within feminists groups. Just look up transexual issues & feminism. That's a big source of disagreement right ther…

Of course "feminism" isn't a unified lockstep movement.

But is there a thing, let's call it "pop feminism", which is widespread enough and whose adherents share enough basic ideas and positions, that we can usefully predicate things of it? Absolutely. And, well, that's the problem.

For example, when I see people use terms like "patriarchy" in earnest, I tend to grimace a bit. Not because I think they're crazy radical idiots, but because I think they're dangerously behind the times. The concept of unilateral patriarchy (i.e., a system in which most/all advantages based on gender accrue to men while most/all disadvantages based on gender accrue to women) is something like thirty years out of date at this point. We know now that the enemy is gender essentialism, which rigid, constrained roles and systemic advantages/disadvantages emerge from. We also know now that it's not a unidirectional oppression -- the resulting roles have aspects which harm people of all genders, and give at least some advantages to people of all genders.

But for every one person who gets this there are a thousand, or more, who just read sites like Jezebel, or feminism-related tags on Tumblr/Facebook, and end up imbibing pop-feminism ideas that are woefully out of touch with what we now actually know about gender in our society. What's worse, those ideas tend to reinforce essentialist gender roles rather than seek to overturn them.

The wage gap, currently being argued in the usual stupid way in another front-page thread, is actually a wonderful example of this. Research has shown, time and again, that much of the gap results from women being assigned, by society as a whole, a "childbearer/caregiver" role. And the consequences are clear. Women are more likely to work part-time, women who work full-time work fewer hours and less overtime, women actively seek out "child-friendly" workplaces, women start out with relative earning parity but it falls off a cliff once they have or start thinking about having children, a whole raft of stuff that adds up really really quickly.

A real solution to this would be to throw out the essentialism and the notion that child-rearing is "women's work". A real solution would seek to push women out of automatically assuming that bearing and raising children is a vitally important life goal, and would seek to push men out of automatically assuming their role doesn't involve caring for kids. A real solution would question basic ideas about what a successful life looks like and throw out any and all assumptions about "I am of this gender, therefore I should desire that"

But pop feminism doesn't do any of that. Instead it assumes that being a woman is mostly identical with wanting to have children and be their primary caregiver. So pop-feminist articles focus on how to "have it all", how to "balance" raising two kids with working 80-hour weeks at a law firm or running your own business, and argue that the important thing is to provide things like on-site day-care and generous maternal-leave policies to ensure women can keep right on performing the same rigid role they've had imposed on them for centuries.

What's more, we know these policies really don't work. There are countries which have implemented them, and they still see drastic drop-offs of women's lifetime earnings post-childbirth. What those policies do really well is make it easier to slide back into that role of "raising children is what I'm really supposed to do with my life".

But rather than attack the real problem, and ask the real, really hard questions about gender roles and how to overturn them, most people who identify as "feminist" just forward and share and retweet the same old pop-feminism drivel. And if you believe there isn't a relatively large group of people who identify that way and do exactly that, with relative ideological unity in terms of underlying assumptions, then I just don't know what Internet you're spending time on.

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