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I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

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Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#201

Post by badclient »

ritchiea wrote: post #188
pessimizer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's conscious on a lot of people's parts. I've also heard "no women, no sexual harassment suits" enough from people in tech to assume that there are a lot of bigots not dumb enough to admit it out loud. I could be going too far, though. Maybe the kind of dumb lockerroom overshare bluster amongst the employees and managers of sexually harassing companies and departments lends itself to admitting incriminating things…

Agreed. I worked at a company where my CTO said "Well we couldn't seriously consider hiring a woman for this team" after interviewing a female developer. I couldn't believe what I was hearing and it was a pleasure to leave the company shortly thereafter. It saddens me to know there are people who think the presence of women infringes on their right to make sexist remarks. And that making sexist remarks is such a vita…

It saddens me to know there are people who think the presence of women infringes on their right to make sexist remarks. And that making sexist remarks is such a vital part of their everyday life that hiring women is the unacceptable route.

It is a problem when "sexist remark" has a much more vague definition in court than in everyday life.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#202

Post by [deleted] »

anaptdemise wrote: post #143
belorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it bigotry, but rather stupidity. They are not the first people ever thinking the idea of separating female and men, or suggested that some benefits can be achieved that way. Schools like to separate girls from boys, and points towards improved and safer environment. Conferences like to create women only sections, in the idea (with some irony) that it would improve gender equality, and like schools,…

> Schools have almost gone through this stage and fully gone over to mixed classrooms. To their detriment. As a product of both coed and all boys private schools, there is a stark difference in teaching and disceplin in single sex schools that research shows improves outcomes. Hit http://scholar.google.com/ with "single sex education." There is a huge discrepancy in male performance especially that most teachers admi…

[deleted]

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#203

Post by gcr »

belorn wrote: post #106
speeder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why you need to change MEN attitudes? Most HR departments are staffed by women for example, they would be the ones that saw a "Mr." in the resume.

Female bosses discriminate worse against women than male bosses. The causes to this is debated, through if we want a change, we do indeed need to change people rather than men .

That sounds interesting. Have any sources? I'd like to read up about this.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#204

Post by katbyte »

pessimizer wrote: post #192
anaptdemise wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allow women (and men) to get through it without having to constantly bite their tongues or else be seen as the problem Right. Bite my tongue and put on the kid gloves. Wouldn't want to discuss last nights episode of Game of Thrones in the break room, less be seen as a sexist jerk. People do have friends at work, and normal human interactions do take place there.

People also have sex with people they know from work. Should they have it at work? If you can't find something to talk about at work other than how hot some naked woman on tv was last night, they're not giving you enough to do. If your friends at work refuse to meet you away from work for your crucial sex talk, they may be uncomfortable with it too. If your self-righteousness is because you feel put upon by not being…

>If your friends at work refuse to meet you away from work for your crucial sex talk, they may be uncomfortable with it too.

If someone is uncomfortable with something they should speak up. If someone says they are uncomfortable with something that should be respected (within reason).

Its not that hard when everyone just behaves as adults instead of spoiled sheltered children who cannot communicate with each other

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#205

Post by ritchiea »

badclient wrote: post #201
ritchiea wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I worked at a company where my CTO said "Well we couldn't seriously consider hiring a woman for this team" after interviewing a female developer. I couldn't believe what I was hearing and it was a pleasure to leave the company shortly thereafter. It saddens me to know there are people who think the presence of women infringes on their right to make sexist remarks. And that making sexist remarks is such a vita…

It saddens me to know there are people who think the presence of women infringes on their right to make sexist remarks. And that making sexist remarks is such a vital part of their everyday life that hiring women is the unacceptable route. It is a problem when "sexist remark" has a much more vague definition in court than in everyday life.

Wherever you work, whatever you do, you have to trust the people you work with for that relationship to be ongoing and productive (i.e. staying out of court). It sounds like you have a problem trusting women not to take you to court rather than a problem with the court system. Which sounds an awful lot like misogyny.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#206

Post by LockeWatts »

anologwintermut wrote: post #169
pessimizer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's conscious on a lot of people's parts. I've also heard "no women, no sexual harassment suits" enough from people in tech to assume that there are a lot of bigots not dumb enough to admit it out loud. I could be going too far, though. Maybe the kind of dumb lockerroom overshare bluster amongst the employees and managers of sexually harassing companies and departments lends itself to admitting incriminating things…

I think we missed the key point that he implied he was a women with kids. Some set of hiring managers assumed a mother with kids would likely focus more on family then career. That assumption may or may not be dumb. It's certainly correctable if there is serious statistical evidence it is wrong (unlike someone just being a bigot). That wouldn't help this case though, because the inclusion of kids in the resume was an…

Maybe I missed it, where did he say his name implied he had kids?

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#207

Post by robot_friend »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #171
robot_friend wrote: post #14

I am female with a hybrid background in UI design and front-end dev. A while back I created a fake linkedin profile identical to mine except with a male name. Even though it has no profile picture and no contacts, the fake profile gets more recruiter messages than I do, and for more technical positions (I get ones for design, he gets ones for engineering).

Perhaps the recruiters have some negative real-life information that discounts your actual profile but no such negative information against your fake one. Your evidence doesn't show sex discrimination.

Hm. I believe you're suggesting that they somehow recognize me from my photo or my name, neither of which is very likely as I am not at all well-known.

But that does bring up an interesting point - it could be they find me unattractive and thus having a photo is the negative factor (which is still gendered, but in a different way). If this were a true psych study and not one person's curiosity the fake profile should have a photo of a man of a similar age and attractiveness (as judged by a previous study)

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#208

Post by LockeWatts »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #50
cliveowen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a simple way to fix it. Namely providing a means to submit your resume that anonymizes name, gender, age and anything that could bias the reviewer's assessment. The best HR departments already do that, at least that's the hope.

> anything that could bias the reviewer's assessment Well, you could argue that list of skills, education and work experience could bias the assessment as well. There's no clear-cut line here that separates relevant from irrelevant. Sometimes even gender is relevant. For example clerks in grocery stores are mostly women and there are bunch of good business reasons for that (even if they are based on stupid social bia…

"I do believe in the concept of maintaining blacklists against well known cheaters, spammers and other evil doers, and anonymizing names makes you unable to discriminate people by level-of-assholiness ;)"

If there was a protocol\industry agreed standard for doing hashing of names on applications, then you could still do this.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#209

Post by LockeWatts »

ajdecon wrote: post #109
crazygringo wrote: post #3

That's really, really sad. And the worst part is, it's surely conscious on nobody's part. There have even been studies showing this effect. What's even sadder is that there's no obvious or easy way to fix it.

> And the worst part is, it's surely conscious on nobody's part. There have even been studies showing this effect. There are studies showing that the unconscious effect exists. But it's definitely conscious at times. I know a few people in HR in Silicon Valley, and here are a few things they've heard from actual hiring managers: "You don't have any kids? Great, we can work you harder!" "If he had to reschedule the ph…

Those seem like caricatures of what an HR person would say, rather than what was actually said.

I work at a company notorious for poor work\life balance, and nobody has ever said to me 'we can work harder' in any context.

They say things like 'We value people who are commited to growing the company. If a candidate shows us he's willing to go the extra mile to finish the project he's working on, that's a definite positive indicator."

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#210

Post by Falling3 »

LockeWatts wrote: post #206
anologwintermut wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we missed the key point that he implied he was a women with kids. Some set of hiring managers assumed a mother with kids would likely focus more on family then career. That assumption may or may not be dumb. It's certainly correctable if there is serious statistical evidence it is wrong (unlike someone just being a bigot). That wouldn't help this case though, because the inclusion of kids in the resume was an…

Maybe I missed it, where did he say his name implied he had kids?

"If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids."
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