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The biggest issue facing America

lewmoorman.com

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Re: The biggest issue facing America

#21

Post by furburger »

cnlwsu wrote: post #7

Hmm, no citations, no real references. The graph is 50% "estimated" from 2005 and pre-estimated values doesn't have the exponential growth thats demonstrated on the graph. Lets also keep in mind the new medicare/medicaid restrictions that is drastically effects what is being paid for by the state and what hospitals are now footing the bill for. "Social security can be solved" sweet, lets get on that. glad he had some…

oh fuck off. there is always some pedantic prick who has nothing intelligent to say but chimes in with "citations????". you get tonight's dipshit award

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#22

Post by furburger »

bokonist wrote: post #17
lmoorman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Added the link to my list of reading. Looks very interesting. I do share your cynicism that we have no tolerance for real change politically. The charge of socialism meets every single proposal that involves a little more government involvement.

Lack of government involvement is not the problem with U.S. healthcare. There is government intervention everywhere. My rule of thumb for determining whether an industry is a free market or not, is that I ask the question, "Can I start a business to solve the problem? Or am I legally prevented or constrained from doing so?" In the U.S. I am legally barred from implementing most of my business ideas that would fix the…

NO ONE WANTS A FREE MARKET SOLUTION FOR HEALTHCARE.

get over it.

a free market solution means dying baby gets turned away when parent has no money. otherwise it is not a market solution. no one wants this. no one. move to somalia, you can implement your plan there, life is cheap.

healthcare is not a business. no civil society is going to let you decline cusomters who cannot pay when it comes to keeping the baby alive.

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#23

Post by furburger »

klein_waffle wrote: post #15
noonespecial wrote: post #4

This might actually be a problem that politics just fails monumentally as a tool for fixing. Like trying to repair an MG with a herring. There will come a time when technology will make it possible to keep someone alive indefinitely so long as you spend exponentially more money to do so. Everyone has been conditioned to think that they deserve the best healthcare regardless of what choices they've made in their lives…

Can we discuss health care without the science fiction and doomsday scenarios? I realize that the USA is used to looking inward for solutions, but other governments are solving these problems, better, today . Every discussion I have with Americans about healthcare leads directly to these imagined totalitarian futures, as if "everybody" knew that this was what happens. I don't understand it. Where did you all learn th…

Can we discuss health care without the science fiction and doomsday scenarios?

only if you travel back to 1981 before these costs started their long-term snowball

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#24

Post by lionheart »

lmoorman wrote: post #14
lionheart wrote: post #13

Why does the bad trend only start in the Estimated part of the graph?

baby boomers hit the 60-80s. and most healthcare costs are in your later years.

But if the trend hasn't started yet, how can the graph possibly hope to extrapolate it with any degree of accuracy?

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#25

Post by noonespecial »

olefoo wrote: post #16
noonespecial wrote: post #4

This might actually be a problem that politics just fails monumentally as a tool for fixing. Like trying to repair an MG with a herring. There will come a time when technology will make it possible to keep someone alive indefinitely so long as you spend exponentially more money to do so. Everyone has been conditioned to think that they deserve the best healthcare regardless of what choices they've made in their lives…

As I see it the major problems of our current healthcare regime have very little to do with radical life extension and any perceived unfairness in end-of-life care. The major problem is that we are in the hands of a criminal syndicate that is structured around extracting money from people when they are at their most weak, vulnerable and uncertain. That this criminal syndicate, which spans the health insurance, legal…

Well said. I actually took as a given that this system will disintegrate very soon. It was unraveling even in the best of times but the current economic conditions have set it up for the final collapse. I was thinking more about the difficult task of deciding what will take its place.

I'd wager that the only people left who don't think that the entire path that money takes between patients and doctors needs to be demolished and started over from scratch are lobbyists.

At this point, the parasites have more or less killed the host. If, in the unlikely event that we Americans make no real progress on this in the next couple of years, projecting out to 2043 and talking about sustainability is entirely moot. We'll have gone banana republic long before it matters.

Edit: Perhaps I over-emphasized the end-of-life part. Got it on the brain a lot these days. The perceived unfairness will permeate the entire system. Just put the Noble laureate and the truck driver in an accident with only enough resources to save one. Who will decide, and how. If they have the power to choose the scientist, they have the power to choose their roommates cousins nephew or a big campaign donor.

Government rationing seems like the best choice. It still sucks. Bummer.

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#26

Post by olefoo »

noonespecial wrote: post #25
olefoo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I see it the major problems of our current healthcare regime have very little to do with radical life extension and any perceived unfairness in end-of-life care. The major problem is that we are in the hands of a criminal syndicate that is structured around extracting money from people when they are at their most weak, vulnerable and uncertain. That this criminal syndicate, which spans the health insurance, legal…

Well said. I actually took as a given that this system will disintegrate very soon. It was unraveling even in the best of times but the current economic conditions have set it up for the final collapse. I was thinking more about the difficult task of deciding what will take its place. I'd wager that the only people left who don't think that the entire path that money takes between patients and doctors needs to be dem…

> the parasites have more or less killed the host

Precisely

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#27

Post by anamax »

bokonist wrote: post #2

The simplest thing to do is pick out the best healthcare system in the world, and then replicate it exactly. So bring in the top officials from Singapore, put them on an independent commission to redesign the healthcare system, and force Congress to pass exactly the plan they come up with. Read more about Singapore's healthcare system here: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/01/singapores_heal.... http://www.am…

> The simplest thing to do is pick out the best healthcare system in the world, and then replicate it exactly. So bring in the top officials from Singapore, put them on an independent commission to redesign the healthcare system, and force Congress to pass exactly the plan they come up with.

You'd have to also replicate the covered population and make sure that there's a "USA" outside paying for drug development and the like.

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#28

Post by anamax »

furburger wrote: post #19

some points: - healthcare is not a business. get over it. the law says you cannot decline emergency care. there is no business model here, any more than there is in running the navy. its a cost. - you care about public health. meaning, you care if other people are healthy. do you go to the mall or restaurants? if you do, you care if the person next to you has TB. infectous diseases doesn't care about your fully-paid…

> water is rationed. ... bandwidth is rationed.

Nope.

I'm pretty sure that I can buy as much water as I want and I know that I can buy as much bandwidth as I want.

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#29

Post by sketerpot »

furburger wrote: post #22
bokonist wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of government involvement is not the problem with U.S. healthcare. There is government intervention everywhere. My rule of thumb for determining whether an industry is a free market or not, is that I ask the question, "Can I start a business to solve the problem? Or am I legally prevented or constrained from doing so?" In the U.S. I am legally barred from implementing most of my business ideas that would fix the…

NO ONE WANTS A FREE MARKET SOLUTION FOR HEALTHCARE. get over it. a free market solution means dying baby gets turned away when parent has no money. otherwise it is not a market solution. no one wants this. no one. move to somalia, you can implement your plan there, life is cheap. healthcare is not a business. no civil society is going to let you decline cusomters who cannot pay when it comes to keeping the baby alive…

I would think that not killing babies would be the kind of publicity advantage that really sets a business apart from its competition.

Re: The biggest issue facing America

#30

Post by ibsulon »

anamax wrote: post #27
bokonist wrote: post #2

The simplest thing to do is pick out the best healthcare system in the world, and then replicate it exactly. So bring in the top officials from Singapore, put them on an independent commission to redesign the healthcare system, and force Congress to pass exactly the plan they come up with. Read more about Singapore's healthcare system here: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/01/singapores_heal.... http://www.am…

> The simplest thing to do is pick out the best healthcare system in the world, and then replicate it exactly. So bring in the top officials from Singapore, put them on an independent commission to redesign the healthcare system, and force Congress to pass exactly the plan they come up with. You'd have to also replicate the covered population and make sure that there's a "USA" outside paying for drug development and…

As much as people speak of the drug development problem, how many copies of Viagra do we need? How many more statins? The drugs don't even seem to get better, they just are finding ways to extend patents!

Past that, most of the competition is not in innovation, but rather in marketing.

"The researchers’ estimate is based on the systematic collection of data directly from the industry and doctors during 2004, which shows the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spent 24.4% of the sales dollar on promotion, versus 13.4% for research and development, as a percentage of US domestic sales of US$235.4 billion." -- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht...

Finally, the NIH is picking up most of the tab for fundamental research, and as such, it isn't the drug company that is leading innovation. As such, I find the drug development argument hollow.

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