Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

simulacrum.cc

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 681 posts

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#511

Post by nhaehnle »

jerf wrote: post #482
dasil003 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overweighting the relative influence BI can exert. Introducing BI as a tiny fraction of GDP does not make existing financial power structures disappear. Existing wealth will still wield the same influence it always has. There will be plenty of lobbyists to push back against corporate tax hikes, there will still be the usual capitalist incentives to start a business and increase production, the American…

"Introducing BI as a tiny fraction of GDP" OK, yes, but what's going to keep it a tiny fraction of the GDP? The BI's natural "lobbying organzation" is the entire public ... not even the entire voting public, but the entire public. No current structures have that characteristic. For almost the entire population, $10,000 is a lot of money . Even people making $150,000/year are going to still appreciate $10,000, and we'…

Your argument underlie some implicit assumptions, which are that (a) a BI that increases over time has negative consequences, and (b) these consequences would be invisible to the people.

Those seem some pretty strong assumptions to me, and they deserve to be further justified.

Why do you actually think that making the BI larger is a bad idea? And why do you think that people will disagree / not add one and one together?

If you think that increasing the BI requires tax increases, well, there will be people complaining about the tax increases, and your argument goes poof.

If you think that increasing the BI causes higher inflation, then either people will decide that having a higher BI is worth it, or there will be people complaining about the higher inflation, and your argument goes poof.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#512

Post by Nursie »

talmand wrote: post #396
Nursie wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices Tax on corporate profit does not need to have this effect, because it only applies to profits, not to revenue. Sure, if a corporation wants to keep the same amount of profit after a tax hike it has to put its prices up. But because we're only taxing what's happening after deduction of cos…

But most businesses need those profits to expand and innovate. If they require a certain level of profits to accomplish those goals then the recourse is to raise their prices for the next round of profits in the hopes being to accomplish those goals. Now, if we're talking about a company that just puts all those profits in the pockets of their upper management then I suppose who cares. But the smaller companies, thos…

Investment in staff, research, equipment etc. tends to come out before profit calculations. So no.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#513

Post by ppereira »

jerf wrote: post #392
btilly wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

There is a near balance between those who would vote for and against a basic income based. The simplest implementation would involve a flat income tax that is distributed as a lump sum. For this case, families earning less than average would want an increased basic income and families earning more would want the opposite.

Some rational voters, however, would want to mitigate their downside risk, and therefore wish to have a basic income despite its cost.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#514

Post by MartinCron »

btilly wrote: post #5

I've got a twist on this basic idea. Fund basic income with a large tax on various CO2 producing activities. With the idea that - on average - people can pay this tax out of the basic income received from it. And people will have direct incentives to find ways to reduce CO2 consumption. Then get rid of silly specific legislation that tries to achieve the same goal in less successful ways. Thus fuel efficiency, Califo…

You want to couple one controversial idea (basic income) with another controversial idea (global climate change)? Yikes!

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#515

Post by prostoalex »

dannypgh wrote: post #309
spinachthrow wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think inflation is?

As you mention, inflation results in people losing real wealth proportionally to the amount of total (nominal) wealth that they have. On the whole, it's a fairly progressive form of redistribution, as long as wages are able to rise with inflation. It would seem to me that an unconditional basic income could therefore be paid in part through this mechanism, with the inflation caused by simply increasing the amount of…

As a seller of products or services, what motivation do you have to peg the price of your products or services to such an inflationary measure?

Developing countries frequently switch to USD/EUR in times of financial calamities, as marketplaces there gravitate towards currencies that preserve wealth, not erode it, which is what you're planning to institutionalize.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#516

Post by [deleted] »

dasil003 wrote: post #460
jerf wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

I think you're overweighting the relative influence BI can exert. Introducing BI as a tiny fraction of GDP does not make existing financial power structures disappear. Existing wealth will still wield the same influence it always has. There will be plenty of lobbyists to push back against corporate tax hikes, there will still be the usual capitalist incentives to start a business and increase production, the American…

[deleted]

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#517

Post by TeMPOraL »

JonSkeptic wrote: post #115

The author of this is article is more than a little bit out of touch. To be honest, HN is the only place I have ever even heard people discuss the concept of an Unconditional Basic Income or call Bitcoin a "radical economic ideology". Most people in the US have never even heard of Bitcoin or an Unconditional Basic Income. The author is so far removed from reality that it's almost humorous. He cites an example where I…

> Most people in the US have never even heard of Bitcoin or an Unconditional Basic Income.

Most people also don't understand technology and what it means that, to quote a Portal poster, "Robots are SMARTER than you, Robots work HARDER than you" [0]. Those people who have never heard of UBI will also, in 30 years, never hear of their jobs again.

[0] - http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Karla_the_Complainer?file=Bu...

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#518

Post by unclebucknasty »

JonFish85 wrote: post #407
unclebucknasty wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "corporate taxes are ultimately passed onto people" I don't really get this argument. It's always made as if the taxes are applied in a vacuum where market forces no longer exist. If corporations are operating in a competitive market, they will seek cost advantages and continue to compete for market share. Raised taxes represent an additional expense (for the purposes of this discussion), much like raised energy pr…

Isn't it an easy solution though? Based on what you've said, companies have likely already done what they can to reduce expenses to what they consider an optimal place. I'll try an example, although that might not be totally valid (I'm not really up on current tax laws). These are all made-up numbers and rates: Say you sell a widget for $100, and it costs you $70 to make. Your profit on that is $30, of which let's sa…

I see the rationale in that argument, but I think one of the things you're missing is that companies won't just automatically raise their prices in unison.

Smart companies may hold their prices constant and take a per unit profit hit to capture more share, allowing them to maintain or even increase overall profit. They may introduce higher margin products and/or develop entirely new strategies or lines of business.

And that is the free market mechanism that I mentioned: each company must adjust to the new reality and try to use it to gain an edge over its competitors. They do this all the time.

And, given this new incentive to maintain profits, they may be more aggresive in finding cost reduction elsewhere. One might argue that companies are doing all they can now, but you might be surprised at how new realities create new incentives.

The other important thing with returning shareholder value is how Wall Street works. It is very much a time-relative game. For example, how did the company do vs. last quarter or same quarter last fiscal year? Viewed this way, you can see why some companies pump the brakes on all out profit-maximization over a given timeframe, instead opting to ensure that the line keeps moving up and to the right over a longer period. So, it's more complicated than all companies are always maximizing profit at all times.

Finally, your example that the easiest thing to do is to raise the price by, say, $1 doesn't really hold, irrespective of what direct competitors do with their pricing. They must still keep prices in line with what the market will bear. If not, consumers may begin looking for substitutes or go without (depending on the product). So, while it might be the simplest thing for a company to try, it might not be accepted by the market.

This is all part of the free market at work. So, your simplification is tempting, but I think it goes back to creating that vacuum I mentioned, ignoring all of the many market variables that countervail the assumption that $1 in increased "cost" equals $1 in increased price.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#519

Post by lmartel »

JonFish85 wrote: post #407
unclebucknasty wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "corporate taxes are ultimately passed onto people" I don't really get this argument. It's always made as if the taxes are applied in a vacuum where market forces no longer exist. If corporations are operating in a competitive market, they will seek cost advantages and continue to compete for market share. Raised taxes represent an additional expense (for the purposes of this discussion), much like raised energy pr…

Isn't it an easy solution though? Based on what you've said, companies have likely already done what they can to reduce expenses to what they consider an optimal place. I'll try an example, although that might not be totally valid (I'm not really up on current tax laws). These are all made-up numbers and rates: Say you sell a widget for $100, and it costs you $70 to make. Your profit on that is $30, of which let's sa…

What if no one buys your widget for $101? You'll bring the price back down to $100 very, very quickly.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#520

Post by TeMPOraL »

dorkrawk wrote: post #409

What happens if I squander my basic income on something frivolous and I can't get a job? Wouldn't there still need to be social programs to prevent people who fuck up from just starving to death? How would a basic income coexist with current systems of debt? Could this exist without VAST healthcare reform? What happens when people get (expensively) sick? Who gets a basic income? Every citizen over 18? Every non depen…

Food and basic healthcare should be free. Literally free. There's no reason for it not to be in the future, in the very same condition that encourage us to adopt BI.

And if people won't eat even then... well, there's only so much you can do if the other person doesn't want to live.

Post reply on HN