Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#281

Post by kyllo » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

chiph wrote: post #237

kyllo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never really heard of anyone proposing a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on I've heard of lots of people proposing a very small guaranteed payment from the state, as in, bare minimum for subsistence-level food and shelter, on the order of $10,000/year. You would not be able to "party every night for life" on such a pension. The idea is that it would lubricate the job market, re…

I strongly suspect that the Basic Income Guarantee would receive increases in excess of the rate of inflation, as politicians use it to buy votes. I think the $10k/yr figure that was quoted is unrealistic - that would cover food expenses with not much left over for housing costs. Even in a low-cost part of the nation, they'd have to perform work of some kind to earn more.

I think the $10k/year proposal was per person, not per household. Although that begs the question, at what age should the benefit start?

$10k/year is $833/month. $500/month rent and $333/month (about $11/day) for food is pretty basic subsistence for a single person. Yes, you'd have to work if you wanted anything more than basic nutrition and shelter, or wanted to live in a high-cost urban center, but the idea here is just that you shouldn't face homelessness/starvation just because you can't find gainful employment.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#282

Post by oijaf888 » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

throwit1979 wrote: post #233

dragonwriter wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive No, its not. > the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. It increases producer prices which shifts the supply curve to the right, but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products, and that price elasticity…

No more than taxing labor income (which the US does disproportionately) If you have a point to make, please try doing it without blatantly lying. It's common knowledge that the US has substantially higher corporate tax rates than almost anywhere else: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/21/corporat...

Seriously? What tax rate do you pay on your regular 40h a weke job? What tax rate do you pay on investments? Most people are taxed roughly 36% (28% income tax, 2% medicare, 6% social security) on their labor, however investments are only taxed at a flat 15%. Hence, the US disproportionately taxes labor over investments.

Do you have other evidence that shows that investment income is in-fact taxed higher than labor income in the US?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#283

Post by medell » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

Read NPR's beautiful article "UNFIT FOR WORK - The startling rise of disability in America" if you're not convinced on the costs of the current system and how people cheat it. http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#284

Post by zxcdw » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #217

streptomycin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. True. The problem is, as things are now, a certain percentage of the population will be forced to stop working as they are made obsolete by increasingly efficient globalization and automation. As that percentage increases, eventually either society will collapse or something fundamental will have to change (such as implem…

What evidence is there of that? Because we've had a slow recovery from the last recession? That couldn't possibly be because of bad policy, no?

Automation. Can you imagine the consequences of a driverless car on transportation industry for example? Or automated cashing machines on cashiers? Or cleaner robots for cleaners? You see, simple jobs are going to be replaced in the future. These people will go unemployed, because there will be no simple jobs for them. This is a trend, yes, and it won't happen overnight. But there's one crucial fact -- it doesn't just stop at replacing simple jobs. It will eventually replace even more demanding ones, such as knowledge workers. Infact, only human creativity seems to be the only thing which we can't automate YET, but perhaps eventually will be able to. What this means is that the current capitalistic system has to fail eventually because we lose jobs, and it seems very certain that automation is going to be the beginning of the end.

This has been happening in China too -- recently(late last year) there was news about Foxconn replacing over a million jobs with robots in China. What this means is cheaper products which are also accessible to those who don't work. It narrows the purchasing power gap between those who work and those who don't.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#285

Post by ihsw » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

antitrust wrote: post #268

The problem with unconditional basic income is that there's no incentive to do anything beyond the minimum. Like most utopian plans, this idea relies on the belief that humans will get up and do things in large numbers. We can't even get them to voluntarily recycle and quit beating their kids.

It's becoming increasingly clear that some people can't work despite their willingness. Full-time job growth is at an all-time low while temporary job growth is at an all-time high. Most of the jobs gained since 2008 have been temporary jobs or jobs with too few hours.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#286

Post by sbhere » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:10 PM UTC

> - You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. > > - The welfare bureaucracy is largely dismantled. No means testing, no signing on, no bullying young people into stacking shelves for free, no separate state pension.

Self-contradiction.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#287

Post by dannypgh » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

mynewwork wrote: post #235

hackinthebochs wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. People will work, they just won't "work for the man" if they don't want to. They will do things they enjoy. They will be creative. They will play sports. They will volunteer, etc etc. Ask yourself: what would you do with your life if you had nothing to compel you into the daily grind for survival? If your basic needs were guaranteed to be met, what would you want to accomplish? Imagine a world where t…

Being a waiter, cook, barista, janitor, retail floor worker, or cashier are all 'working for the man' that few people really enjoy. So restaurants, coffee shops and basically all stores disappear in your proposed only "do things they enjoy" world. Which is good, because no one would work construction, or do plumbing, or review building permits for safety in a basement office in city hall for fun either, so there woul…

You don't think there is any amount of money you could pay people to do those things for you? If so, I think you're mistaken.

This may mean that costs for getting people to do unpleasant things for you will rise. Consider it a correction to the fact that median real wages have been falling for years, if you'd like. If - even with your new basic income - you are having a hard time finding someone to work for you, you'll just have to offer more money. This is preferable to forcing people to work for you out of fear of them dying for want of food or healthcare, in my book.

I think you also have a narrow-minded conception of what people can view as fun. I would very much enjoy being a chef, but it doesn't pay as well as my current gig and that's a larger motivator for me in part because of the lack of social net.

Robots and automation will continue to do more and more of the total labor that humans need; this provides a constant check against labor prices rising too much. It seems like we would steer our robotics and AI R&D towards replacing jobs that humans really don't want to do [at the amount you're able to pay them]. What's wrong with that?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#288

Post by yhlasx » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #146

crazygringo wrote: post #73

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. After all, if corporate taxes truly fell on the po…

Increase in corporate taxes will be partially paid by consumers, but also it will reduce corporate profits. If they pass it completely to consumers, it will reduce demand -> reduce revenue -> reduce profits, so the increase will be paid by both parties. If anyone believes in market forces and the invisible hand (also if you took some basic economics courses) you should agree with this.

I don't understand the fuss over corporate taxes

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#289

Post by Artistry121 » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

Zimahl wrote: post #223

cdoxsey wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They, of course, would still work, but the great unwashed masses would sit on their backsides and take the money. The counter argument would be the existence of industries that people will already not work in. For example Italy has a 38.5% youth unemployment rate. It also can't get enough workers for the garment industry. So why don't the youth of Italy want these jobs? Maybe the work is seen as menial (so a cultural…

The question is: how many people currently working would stop working if they didn't need to? (particularly in the areas vital for the basic functioning of society) That question is so impossibly difficult to answer that I don't think any system we come up with won't have potentially disastrous consequences. I don't think it's all that difficult to answer. When I leave the office building I work at the end of my day,…

Basic income is just that - basic income. Some people who want to have more than that will work. Janitors still want iPads or cable television - and they will be incentized to work for that on a competitive market for those products and services.

0 hours of janitoring = small comfortable house and enough food

5 hours of janitoring = small comfortable hosue and enough food and cable televsion

If people simply stopped working when they could live "comfortably" why would they buy iPads, cable television, new cars? Employment history and reputation aren't going out the window with this plan either. A janitor will be good at his job because he knows if he gets fired he won't get reccomended for other janitorial jobs - and his chance of getting an iPad in the future goes way down.

I know janitors who buy lottery tickets, eat out at restaurants and have cable television - according to you those wouldn't exist because they could "janitor" less and live without those.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#290

Post by antitrust » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:11 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #159

Though some more reasonable forms of this idea exist, this particular description has some major problems: * What if the money you pay someone does not go as far as expected? Maybe they lose some of the money in various ways, or maybe they are just very bad at negotiating economic transactions or buy the wrong kinds of things from the wrong places. Maybe they are trying to live in an expensive area -- do we kick them…

Another problem is that it might devalue the currency. When most of it is given away, there's decreased competition for it, and thus its value in the market decreases.