Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#221

Post by joonix » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

I don't think it's the same. What you're describing is the unemployment scheme -- "the dole" -- and it's not so clear cut. There are asset tests: if you have a certain amount of savings in the bank, you can't get it immediately. You also need to go in for interviews frequently and keep diaries of your job search.

The basic idea is on track, though. You know that no matter what happens, you'll be able to eat and put some sort of roof over your head. I'm curious to see if the social welfare programs continue to remain generous as Australia's government deficits increase and non-white immigrants continue to flood into the country.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#222

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

aneth4 wrote: post #203

I agree that a basic income may be the best solution to the decline in demand for labor. And I consider myself economically conservative. There is still much to be learned about the societal effect. Its something we need to consider as an alternative to social upheaval. However other parts of this article concern me, in particular: "Employment law is liberalised, as workers no longer need to fear dismissal." Employme…

I don't think you understand what "liberalised" employment law means, since it means movement in the direction (if not necessarily to the exact point) you are arguing for in arguing against it.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#223

Post by Zimahl » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

cdoxsey wrote: post #126

summerdown2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. Everyone I've ever seen argue this has had strong opinions about how other (more greedy and venal) people would act. They, of course, would still work, but the great unwashed masses would sit on their backsides and take the money. I suggest, instead, we try specifics. Given a basic income, I wouldn't be lazy. Nor would…

They, of course, would still work, but the great unwashed masses would sit on their backsides and take the money. The counter argument would be the existence of industries that people will already not work in. For example Italy has a 38.5% youth unemployment rate. It also can't get enough workers for the garment industry. So why don't the youth of Italy want these jobs? Maybe the work is seen as menial (so a cultural…

The question is: how many people currently working would stop working if they didn't need to? (particularly in the areas vital for the basic functioning of society) That question is so impossibly difficult to answer that I don't think any system we come up with won't have potentially disastrous consequences.

I don't think it's all that difficult to answer. When I leave the office building I work at the end of my day, the janitors are just showing up. They probably already only get paid the basic livable wage (probably less), so why would they show up to work if they were getting the paycheck anyways? I can think of 100s of other jobs that someone wouldn't show up for because they aren't worth the time, they aren't fun, or even remotely interesting.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#224

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:28 PM UTC

FreakyT wrote: post #155

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

> Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Since jobs will still pay, why would having a small stream of unconditional income equate to "no incentive to work"?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#225

Post by VMG » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #146

crazygringo wrote: post #73

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. After all, if corporate taxes truly fell on the po…

> Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate.

So why tax by proxy and not wealth directly?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#226

Post by thedufer » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

FreakyT wrote: post #155

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Are companies going to stop paying employees? No, so there's still going to be an incentive to work. Like, say, having more than bare subsistence.

I don't know what you're arguing against, but its not what people mean by an unconditional basic income. Maybe you're arguing against pure communism, but that's not what this article is about at all.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#227

Post by imgabe » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

yaddayadda wrote: post #212

imgabe wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't ever do anything - not any one single thing - without a profit motive?

"You don't ever do anything - not any one single thing - without a profit motive?" [Corrected] There are many non-profit motives, from simple hunger (i.e., when you're hungry you want food, not "profit") to curiosity (e.g., can I build a robot to beat Bill's bot?), from sex-drive (e.g., oh-la-la, she's hot, let me go chat her up and see if there's a "we" in our future) to helping friends and family (e.g., mom's yard…

Yes, that's why there's plenty of reasons you would still want to "do things" even if you didn't need to work.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#228

Post by randomdata » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:29 PM UTC

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

> Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life!

Given that a typical developer could earn a basic income in a month or two and then take the rest of the year off, yet almost nobody does, I think we can conclude that it is not as sweet as you think it might be. It might be fun for a week or two, but then it is time to get back to doing something productive.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#229

Post by anExcitedBeast » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

Nothing about this would work.

Significantly fewer corporations with a drastically smaller workforce paying greatly increased tax rates with a substantially weaker dollar to benefit an unthinkably higher quantity of citizens? I assume we still want to keep our military, education, and surveillance programs funded, too.

It simply does not math.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#230

Post by iheart2code » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

How would a system like this scale to different regions? I can see this working in a smaller country, not the US. I would need a much larger subsistence wage to survive in the SF bay area than I would in most other places in the country. And if certain (already overcrowded) regions are allowed larger wages, you'd probably see people flocking there for the increased wages. I can also see this placing strain on the system for the first few decades if people decide to have more children, since both parents don't need to work anymore.