Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#271

Post by absherwin » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #239

VMG wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. So why tax by proxy and not wealth directly?

> So why tax by proxy and not wealth directly? If by "wealth" you mean "net worth", then because that is even harder to administer than income taxes. If by "wealth" you mean "income", we do that, but earning income through an entity with separate legal entity whose income is not taxed and retaining it in that entity becomes an effective tax dodge if it is permitted. Which is why corporate "income" tax (which is effec…

Given that the vast majority of wealth in this country in held in liquid assets or in real estate which is already taxed based on value, why do you suppose that a scheme to tax it would be more complex than the corporate tax system which employs on the order of ten thousand people and generates returns that are often thousands or even tens of thousands of pages and has been shown to be amenable to a wide variety of gaming through manipulating the timing and geographic incidence of profit?

There will be some complicated edge cases but there will be relatively few and the ability to game them is less because wealth is a simpler concept than income.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#272

Post by aidenn0 » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

Vivtek wrote: post #236

twoodfin wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but unfortunately I don't think "basic income and no other welfare programs" is a politically stable policy. No sooner will it have been introduced than politicians will be tempted to screw with it to help a favored constituency. Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI. Live in an area damaged by a hurricane? We'll bump your BI for a year or two. I don't think a "simpler" tax code…

Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI. So ... politicians would suddenly start to pay people to teach in the inner city? Those scoundrels! I can see why you're opposed to this concept.

One of the proposed advantages of BI is its simplicity (which among other things means few loopholes and lower enforcement overhead). The point the poster you quote is making is that no tax code will remain simple for very long.

In fact you support that point. Many of the complexities we have now come from adding "just one more feature" to the tax code, until we end up with something so complex that there is an entire industry built up around paying taxes.

If he said "In exchange for supporting inner-city teachers, we will be indirectly subsidizing H&R Block to the tune of $2B" you might ponder whether or not it's worth it.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#273

Post by antitrust » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #243

crazygringo wrote: post #73

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

The best policy argument I know of for taxing companies is that it adds a financial incentive to reinvest profits into the company to avoid taxation. Raising corporate tax rates might or might not result in higher consumer prices. Depending on the company or industry, it might instead result in lower profits (which harms investors not consumers), or different management decisions--for example it might lead companies…

> it adds a financial incentive to reinvest profits into the company to avoid taxation.

Couldn't that cause corporations to become bloated monsters?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#274

Post by kaonashi » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #73

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

On a purely logical level, for sovereign nations issuing their own currency, taxation is completely decoupled from spending. You can increase taxes if there's an economic reason for doing so, but it is not a prior constraint on spending.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#275

Post by ticviking » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #36

steveplace wrote: post #21

Basic income on top of everything else doesn't make much sense (cost-wise). But if we could trade B.I. for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and other social progams-- it would probably be more cost efficient as individuals look after their money better than other people do. Here's a video from Milton Friedman (not Tom Friedman!) who is advocating for a negative income tax-- a variation of basic income. http…

Medicare and medicaid wouldn't really apply so much to this as there are systemic problems that make spending money on healthcare not such a good idea. Rather, with a BI we should also include a universal health care option to avoid the issues with consumer healthcare spending and marketing.

Let consumers face those issues and watch as the market responds to consumers who are paying cash.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#276

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:02 PM UTC

jchrisa wrote: post #157

BWStearns wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am inclined to agree with you but I'm not certain. There are some arguments that those living off of BI would form a unique subset of the population and might effectively be ghettoized at least in terms of colocation as opposed to the more economic/social aspect due to their similar needs/means.

the whole point of BI is that everyone gets it, even the rich

That doesn't mean those living exclusively on BI mightn't wind up ghettoized. I don't see why this would be any more true than in any other situation, though. (and as I've said elsewhere, I don't think BI should presently be enough to live comfortably on without draining savings).

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#277

Post by nkoren » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:02 PM UTC

joshuaellinger wrote: post #214

nkoren wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the fact that wage labour isn't the only legitimate kind of work. Volunteering is also fulfilling for people. So is parenting and caretaking. So are any number of other activities which are hard work, very rewarding, beneficial to society -- and yet are uncompensated by a wage labour system. Under a UBI, those become more viable activities, so that wage labour no longer becomes the ONLY monetar…

No argument there. I love the idea of creating a pool of money that goes to people who do work that is beneficial to society. Or even just to make art for personal enjoyment. I'd just like to avoid having the government pay people to, say, drink and party. I think there does need to be some external social pressure / structure to motivate people. Otherwise, you wind up with the same political problems what current we…

Living on the dole is indeed terrible for people -- but it's terrible because it's a poverty trap. A poverty trap isn't created by supporting people who don't earn a wage: it's created by withdrawing support for people who do earn a wage (or engage in other forms of value-creation which the dole administrators disapprove of). Because a person on the dole is micro-managed in their activities, they are unable to volunteer or work part-time without risking losing their one reliable source of income. This is exactly what traps them in a life of unrewarding idleness.

Your proposal would create a poverty trap in exactly the same way as the dole (in fact this is how the dole currently works in Britain -- you've just described something quite akin to the Workfare program, aka slavery for the wageless). Unconditional basic income is not like this at all. It isn't paying people to be idle: it's paying people no matter how much they earn. Because you can never lose your basic income, you are never disincentivised from working. Thus people can volunteer, raise children, care for elderly parents -- or work part-time, or full-time, or in whatever situation they prefer -- without ever losing their safety net. This allows for nire diverse forms of value-creation to be created than in the kind of micro-managed nanny-state that you describe.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#278

Post by Futurebot » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:02 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #238

enko wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really unhelpful comment. Why don't you think for a second next time before rushing out some snarky, superficial nonsense. Of course people would still work, for the same reason you don't still live with your parents - although judging by your response, maybe you do. Are you personally going to be perfectly content with a $10K/yr subsistence allowance? And closing all schools? What are you talking about? Th…

Among us highly motivated and educated people who read HN regularly, it seems somewhat foreign that large swaths of the population will revert to just drinking beer, smoking legal weed, playing video games, watching tv, eating McDonalds and living in their RV or subsided apartment and not use birth control. But large swaths of the population already do this.

We should welcome this. For those left in the job market:

- remuneration would likely improve

- only motivated people would be left, so "pretending" to enjoy a job and all other kinds of fakery diminishes

- artificial competition for jobs would decrease drastically

- the ability to change jobs becomes extremely fluid on both sides of the table(with liberalized hire/fire policies [employer-side] plus a lack of worry about winding up in the street [worker-side])

This is a very large net benefit to the motivated. The sooner those who don't want to be there get to stop working, the better for the rest. An "arts, sports, and leisure (which may take the form of beer or video games)" is going to happen, and we should be happy to allow it for those who want nothing more.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#279

Post by Artistry121 » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:03 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #264

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

>> "Who wants to volunteer to clean my toilet and mow my lawn?" You can't clean your own toilet and mow your own lawn? Especially considering you would have more time to do it with a guaranteed basic income.

At the right price someone would do it. If BI covers my food, small but comfortable housing and general expenses but not an iPad and you offer me $50 to mow your yard each time. I'll mow your yard all summer for an iPad.

The incentive-based, consumer system still works and people will still do mediocre jobs - but they will do them at fair, negotiable wages because they aren't dependent on them.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#280

Post by mistermann » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 6:05 PM UTC

absherwin wrote: post #261

jellicle wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. After all, if corporate taxes truly fell on the po…

It's not that simple. Of course, the direct effect of corporate taxes is mostly on the wealthy who own most of the stock but that's not necessarily the group who gets most of the wealth--more on that below. Even in terms of direct payments, wealth isn't the only important factor. As significant is a company's willingness to be creative. I have never seen a corporate tax scheme that's ungamable that doesn't involve gi…

re: It can use that money in three general ways: Lower prices, raise pay or return it to shareholders.

Or, paid out to executives as bonus.