How would a system like this scale to different regions? I can see this working in a smaller country, not the US. I would need a much larger subsistence wage to survive in the SF bay area than I would in most other places in the country. And if certain (already overcrowded) regions are allowed larger wages, you'd probably see people flocking there for the increased wages. I can also see this placing strain on the system for the first few decades if people decide to have more children, since both parents don't need to work anymore.
Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
231–240 of 681 posts
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#232Just imagine what one could do with one's life, backed by an unconditional income! One could strip off parts of the daily worries; one could try out more things; one could develop ideas, big ideas, without having to fear that a possible failure risks your and your family's lives. Today, only very few people with a solid financial background can afford to work on big ideas. What a waste! Think of all those geniuses ou…
Actually, let me add that I would like to see another development which is something like a compromise on the unconditional income:
Sabatticals.
Sabatticals or semi-sabbaticals should be mandatory. Just imagine what a powerful motivation it would be for anybody, knowing that working hard for a few years will earn you a year off. Then imagine, what one could do during the sabbatical, learn, explore, re-think one's live ... And finally, imagine yourself at the end of your life, looking back saying "yes, maybe I got a bad a job, but I did so many great things during my sabbaticals, so non, je ne regrette rien ..."
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#233> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…
> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive No, its not. > the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. It increases producer prices which shifts the supply curve to the right, but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products, and that price elasticity…
No more than taxing labor income (which the US does disproportionately)
If you have a point to make, please try doing it without blatantly lying. It's common knowledge that the US has substantially higher corporate tax rates than almost anywhere else:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/feb/21/corporat...
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#234I find it interesting that the author mentions BitCoin early on, but then never addresses how an Unconditional Basic Income would work if corporations switched to BitCoin or other anonymous, decentralized monetary system.
In concept, I'm a firm proponent of a Unconditional Basic Income/Guaranteed Minimum Income/Negative Income Tax, but I think BitCoin is going to be a prohibitive cog in the financial wheel.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?
This is absurd. People will work, they just won't "work for the man" if they don't want to. They will do things they enjoy. They will be creative. They will play sports. They will volunteer, etc etc. Ask yourself: what would you do with your life if you had nothing to compel you into the daily grind for survival? If your basic needs were guaranteed to be met, what would you want to accomplish? Imagine a world where t…
Being a waiter, cook, barista, janitor, retail floor worker, or cashier are all 'working for the man' that few people really enjoy. So restaurants, coffee shops and basically all stores disappear in your proposed only "do things they enjoy" world.
Which is good, because no one would work construction, or do plumbing, or review building permits for safety in a basement office in city hall for fun either, so there wouldn't be places for these establishments to exist soon anyway.
Society can't function with people only doing things they enjoy.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#236Basic income on top of everything else doesn't make much sense (cost-wise). But if we could trade B.I. for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and other social progams-- it would probably be more cost efficient as individuals look after their money better than other people do. Here's a video from Milton Friedman (not Tom Friedman!) who is advocating for a negative income tax-- a variation of basic income. http…
I agree, but unfortunately I don't think "basic income and no other welfare programs" is a politically stable policy. No sooner will it have been introduced than politicians will be tempted to screw with it to help a favored constituency. Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI. Live in an area damaged by a hurricane? We'll bump your BI for a year or two. I don't think a "simpler" tax code…
Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI.
So ... politicians would suddenly start to pay people to teach in the inner city? Those scoundrels! I can see why you're opposed to this concept.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#237Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…
I've never really heard of anyone proposing a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on I've heard of lots of people proposing a very small guaranteed payment from the state, as in, bare minimum for subsistence-level food and shelter, on the order of $10,000/year. You would not be able to "party every night for life" on such a pension. The idea is that it would lubricate the job market, re…
I strongly suspect that the Basic Income Guarantee would receive increases in excess of the rate of inflation, as politicians use it to buy votes.
I think the $10k/yr figure that was quoted is unrealistic - that would cover food expenses with not much left over for housing costs. Even in a low-cost part of the nation, they'd have to perform work of some kind to earn more.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#238Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…
This is a really unhelpful comment. Why don't you think for a second next time before rushing out some snarky, superficial nonsense. Of course people would still work, for the same reason you don't still live with your parents - although judging by your response, maybe you do. Are you personally going to be perfectly content with a $10K/yr subsistence allowance? And closing all schools? What are you talking about? Th…
Among us highly motivated and educated people who read HN regularly, it seems somewhat foreign that large swaths of the population will revert to just drinking beer, smoking legal weed, playing video games, watching tv, eating McDonalds and living in their RV or subsided apartment and not use birth control. But large swaths of the population already do this.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. After all, if corporate taxes truly fell on the po…
> Actually, the studies show that corporate taxes are essentially a proxy for the taxing the ultra-wealthy - a cut in the corporate tax rate is very similar to cutting the highest marginal income tax rate. So why tax by proxy and not wealth directly?
> So why tax by proxy and not wealth directly?
If by "wealth" you mean "net worth", then because that is even harder to administer than income taxes.
If by "wealth" you mean "income", we do that, but earning income through an entity with separate legal entity whose income is not taxed and retaining it in that entity becomes an effective tax dodge if it is permitted. Which is why corporate "income" tax (which is effectively a tax on retained profits) is included as part of the income tax system.
Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not that I think this system would work, but people do volunteer without being paid: charity, soup kitchens, etc.
Yeah, but notice that most volunteer work has a special feel-good element to it? Feeding the homeless. Saving lost animals. Helping disadvantaged children. There aren't many volunteer organizations that, to borrow dgallagher's example, mow lawns or rake leaves, and the ones that do, only do it for special places. Perhaps for a monument or a park.
Obviously people would mow lawns but the price would be higher because they don't have to. If you wanted someone to mow your lawn, you would probably need extra income. Or, since you have more free time, you can now mow it yourself and enjoy it instead of feeling like it's cutting into your only spare 48 hours.