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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#171

Post by [deleted] »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

[deleted]

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#172

Post by sliverstorm »

Drakim wrote: post #158
FreakyT wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Not that I think this system would work, but people do volunteer without being paid: charity, soup kitchens, etc.

Yeah, but notice that most volunteer work has a special feel-good element to it? Feeding the homeless. Saving lost animals. Helping disadvantaged children.

There aren't many volunteer organizations that, to borrow dgallagher's example, mow lawns or rake leaves, and the ones that do, only do it for special places. Perhaps for a monument or a park.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#173

Post by pavel_lishin »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

> Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

A lot of people wouldn't do anything; but they don't do much now, either.

Others, however, wouldn't be satisfied with basic survival.

I could probably quit my job and move somewhere cheaper and work 10 hours a week and be able to afford basic food and accommodations - but that doesn't equate to a party at my house every night, because the ultra-basic income wouldn't pay for any frills like alcohol, drugs, or entertainment.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#174

Post by tokenadult »

I see no one in this active discussion has mentioned yet Charles Murray's book In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State,

http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0844742236

in which Murray goes into detail about how much a program of guaranteed income for everyone would cost in the United States, and some probable effects that would have on everyone's everyday behavior. I read the book a year or two after it was published.

Murray's own summary of his argument

http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc242a.pdf

and reviews of his book

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/poverty/in-ou...

http://www.conallboyle.com/BasicIncomeNewEcon/MurrayReview.p...

http://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/region_focu...

http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=296

may inform the discussion here. Big public policy proposals are not easy to discuss, but the big public policy proposal of a guaranteed basic income for all is a response to existing policy of supposedly targeted social welfare programs that are just about equally expensive, but more costly to administer.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#175

Post by JPKab »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

[Peter, Michael, and Samir are chatting as they hang around the printer]

Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.

Samir: So what did you say?

Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech.

Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#176

Post by maratd »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Well, you can solve the problem very easily. If they don't want to have a j-o-b, you can send them to Siberia. Now everybody wants a job. Of course being productive while at work becomes your next challenge. The travails of communism!

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#177

Post by SilasX »

grecy wrote: post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

>The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whatever you earn is deducted from your payments.

That's a pretty significant difference considering that the major selling point of a UBI is that (relative to traditional welfare) it doesn't have the problem of penalizing people for earning money on top of the transfer payments.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#178

Post by dllthomas »

cpursley wrote: post #63
toomuchtodo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says the founder who has a business based off of a major component of US central planning (housing).

What? The two are mutually exclusive. I know it's hard to fathom, but people purchased real estate, and will continue to do so with, or without, central planning. Central planning (expanding the monetary supply and forcing banks to lend) has little effect on my business.

Did you mean "orthogonal" in place of "mutually exclusive"? If they were in fact mutually exclusive then any central planning should have a dramatic (and negative) effect on your business.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#179

Post by chatmasta »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #149
crazygringo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products Of course, but there's still the "minimum profitability" that a business seeks to have. Suppose three firms compete to sell widget X, and consumers are willing to pay up to $10 for it, but the companies sell it at $5 due to competition (it costs $4 to make and distribute). T…

> "corporate taxes are ultimately passed onto people" I don't really get this argument. It's always made as if the taxes are applied in a vacuum where market forces no longer exist. If corporations are operating in a competitive market, they will seek cost advantages and continue to compete for market share. Raised taxes represent an additional expense (for the purposes of this discussion), much like raised energy pr…

> reduce costs elsewhere

Like by hiring less employees.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#180

Post by cadlin »

diydsp wrote: post #101
axuaq wrote: post #56

Can we come up with a solution that doesn't strong-arm workers into keeping society's dead weight around? Why make sure that every non-worker in society has enough money to eat McDonalds and watch cable TV at the cost of the freedom of everyone to make and spend money as they please?

thank you for this. I'm an empathetic person, but every morning I drive out of my driveway to work and look at the house across the street from me with three people who stay home all day in their house watching TV. When I get home, their TV is still on and the other people in my building and I are exhausted from working and finally get some time for recreation, usually in the dark. The other neighbors say the across-…

Have you considered the fact that you don't know anything about the lives of the people who live across the street from you and maybe you should refrain from judging them so harshly?
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