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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic Income should never be enough to live comfortably on with no drain on savings, at least until we've reached a place where we don't need human labor for very many tasks (if ever). I say this as an avid supporter of a basic income.

How would you adjust for # of children per household?

Whatever means works out best, in theory and practice, of course. I don't have a strong opinion on what that looks like, in this case. Conceivably no increase, quite possibly a lesser amount that ramps up over time or a fixed lesser amount, or potentially the full amount but with much of it earmarked for medical and educational expenses.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#202

I see no one in this active discussion has mentioned yet Charles Murray's book In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State, http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0844742236 in which Murray goes into detail about how much a program of guaranteed income for everyone would cost in the United States, and some probable effects that would have on everyone's everyday behavior. I read the book a year or two after it was publi…

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians.

Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#203
I agree that a basic income may be the best solution to the decline in demand for labor. And I consider myself economically conservative. There is still much to be learned about the societal effect. Its something we need to consider as an alternative to social upheaval.

However other parts of this article concern me, in particular: "Employment law is liberalised, as workers no longer need to fear dismissal." Employment laws should be entirely at will in such a system. Workers should fear dismissal. And after all, they have a basic income to fall back on.

Combining basic income with "liberal" employment law would be a disaster.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#205

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

to the Gulag with you!

Coders that work more than 8 hours a week will be banished to the countryside to learn how to live free.

It will be former CEOs that clean the toilets as repayment for their debts to the working class.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#206

What is the advantage of doing this in terms of "income" and "currency" rather than in terms of "rations" and "allotments"? Is it a purely rhetorical difference?

Basic income in the form of currency is fungible and cumulative with other income, rations/allotments, as usually understood, are non-fungible (for specific goods) and usually non-cumulative with other income (that is, a "ration" means you get that much and can get no more, rather than that you get a basic amount and can buy more freely.)

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#207
post #45
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See Australian politics for clues on why that probably won't be an attractive option for politicians where you are. We implemented a carbon tax. While not perfect, it's a pretty decent stab IMO, yet is very easy to demonise and as such is wildly unpopular with hoi polloi. It's a real pity that many good legislative ideas seem to be susceptible to simplistic populist attack if you yell loud enough.

> It's a real pity that many good legislative ideas seem to be susceptible to simplistic populist attack if you yell loud enough. I'm having trouble finding it now (so please take it with a grain of salt), but I remember once reading a quote by a southern US politician in the 1950s that went something like: "I used to talk about paving roads and better schools and no one listened. Then I started pounding tables about…

I've been struggling with this concept for a while. How can we have an effective democracy when it's so easy for stupid, essentially malicious, but persuasive-sounding "political memes" to infect the working classes and derail processes which are actually in the country's interest?

I still don't know the answer but realising that the media were actually part of the effective bureaucracy was a revelation.

We've been lucky, for a long time, that the media has basically done the right thing for the good of the country. Collectively, they are in charge. They slip up every now and again, giving air time to toxic memes like the carbon tax thing, and of course the example you raised - McCarthy suddenly got traction because he comes bearing gifts of news. But generally it's been not too bad.

I hope we remain lucky.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#208

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

>> Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life!

That's the point. With increasing automation we don't need to work.

>> It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they can go home, play video games indefinitely, and never have to worry about their future again.

You have aspirations for more than a roof over your head and enough to eat though, right?

>> Hey boss, fuck you! Why? Because fuck you, that's why! What are you going to do about it? Fire me? Ha!

Yeah, if you still want the money we pay you, or you can go back to your subsistence wage. You won't starve on the street but there won't be any fancy vacations either.

>> Make sure to tax them high enough to pay for all of my house parties.

How are you funding these parties? Your basic income feeds, clothes and houses you, and little else.

>> Who wants to volunteer to clean my toilet and mow my lawn? Anyone? Even if I say thank you when you're done?

No, those would be jobs you still have to pay money to get done, because they're unpleasant.

In fact you'll probably have to pay more for those because they're unpleasant and people don't need the work as badly.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#209
Arguments like this are completely selling ourselves short on our ability as a species/society to innovate and come up with new ideas that improve our life for everyone. I'm sorry, but it drives me absolutely nuts! Come on guys, are we really saying that we aren't capable of continuing to come up with new ideas and grow them into sustainable businesses that lift a majority of Americans out of poverty?? What a positive, optimistic this author has on our future, not to mention his faith in the capabilities of fellow human beings.

Instead of jumping into many of the circular arguments below of where costs are truly incurred from things such as taxes on the rich and on corporations, let's think of taxation in a different way - as valves controlling where capital flows in our economy. Think of taxes as valves in a hydraulic system or switches/relays in an electrical system. If those valves aren't directing the right amount of electricity or hydraulic oil to the right parts of the system, the entire system stops working. In the same line of thinking, if not enough capital is going to the right places in our economy, our economy slows down and stops working.

So, the question becomes, where do we need to adjust the valves to get the entire system working again? Where can we cut taxes, to give that sector of the economy a boost? It's small businesses, innovators/inventors, and early stage startups. Why? Because if 1 out of every 1,000 businesses started turns into the next Microsoft or GM and employs 100,000 people, then we need 10m people out of work right now/100,000 jobs per Microsoft startup*1,000 startup businesses = 100,000 startups.

There's a reason the first round of capital for starting a company typically comes from friends and family - because it's extremely risky, and those closest to the entrepreneur can make that investment at the lowest risk possible because they have insider knowledge of the entrepreneur's skillset. If we have a disappearing middle class, that means that very first round of capital is disappearing too, because it comes from the middle class, which means 10 years from now, we will have even fewer jobs for the middle class. I'll leave it up to everyone else to debate how we can get more money into the hands of the middle class, but taxing the rich and providing a basic income for everyone is not the answer.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#210
If money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given socio-economic context or country,( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money ) then what are persons who receive this money paying? What changes hands? The state gives Chad cash and he gives them what in return? Is a minimum income even money anymore?
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