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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#101
post #56

Can we come up with a solution that doesn't strong-arm workers into keeping society's dead weight around? Why make sure that every non-worker in society has enough money to eat McDonalds and watch cable TV at the cost of the freedom of everyone to make and spend money as they please?

thank you for this. I'm an empathetic person, but every morning I drive out of my driveway to work and look at the house across the street from me with three people who stay home all day in their house watching TV.

When I get home, their TV is still on and the other people in my building and I are exhausted from working and finally get some time for recreation, usually in the dark. The other neighbors say the across-the-street people are selling opiates. They should be made to do something in return for their government money: anything useful around town like cleaning up, repainting signs, babysitting- not just getting free government money to capitalize their opiate sales.

I love my job, but not enough that I would come here everyday first thing in the morning if I weren't being paid. That's why the Wikipedia example mentioned in the article is a _terrible_ counterexample for OP's point. First, Wikipedia is a _clone_, not an original work. Second, it's billions of micro-contributions, not people working 40-45 hours per week like the others in my building and myself. No one is that motivated. As posted yesterday, the theory of the Tyranny of Structurelessness is real. Only a small portion of society functions without leaders. And I admit that I am not one of its leaders (yet!), but I am comfortable for the most getting led toward productive efforts.

That's why I believe poverty is a failure of leadership. It's the inability or disinclination of leaders to herd those people into something useful. It's cheaper to pay them to stay home. It's got nothing to do with them being lazy, as someone else wrote. MOST of us are lazy, not merely the unemployed.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#102
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money and business moves to where it's most welcome for the same reason people move to neighborhoods with low rates of theft (after all, taxation and inflationary monetary policy is theft no matter which way it's painted). The reason people can't find work now is due to the failures of central planning, not the lack of it. Communist and hard-socialist countries all have tried the basic income idea and failed. The onl…

You sir, are mistaken. Communism didn't offer a basic income. People were paid for doing works at jobs. Which everyone had. The constituion of communist Poland even listed having a job as a citizens duty.

I suppose that's what I meant. A lot of people were paid to do very unproductive work.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So sorry I didn't address all your points. I need to get back to work so that others don't have to.

If you knew the answer, it would have taken you less time to type it than it would have to make yet another meaningless platitude.

I'll bite. What I mean is people were paid a basic wage to do very unproductive (even counter-productive) work. So I suppose that's a little different than getting a basic wage without working at all.

At least that's what my USSR-born wife explains.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#104
post #39

Wouldn't the basic income value need to vary across regions? For example, the notion that: "Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on" would mean a different value in San Francisco than in Grover, NC. If the government adjusted the basic income to account for regional cost-of-living, I imagine it would be popular to maintain a fake residency in an expen…

> If the basic income wasn't adjusted for different areas, you would probably see some areas become rich elite enclaves while other areas become basic income ghettos.

Some places have been rich elite enclaves and other places ghettoes for pretty much the whole history of human civilization; its pretty clearly already the case now (and not just between widely geographically separated areas like San Francisco and Grover, NC; its true within cities like San Francisco -- or any other city of substantial size anywhere in the world.)

A flat national BI doesn't create that problem, it just fails to completely eradicate it (it likely does reduce it by reducing overall income inequality, so, as far as the issue is even relevant, its one in favor of adopting BI, not against it.)

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#105
post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

That's not a Basic Income. BI means you don't lose it when you start working. If you lose your benefits by working, that is a perverse disincentive and a divide between those on welfare and those working, and that's what's wrong with the U.S. status quo.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#106

One worry I have with Basic Income discussion is that what most people think the minimum required just to live is very high, which frames the discussion wrong. Basic Income probably shouldn't cover much beyond rent in cheap, shared accommodation, heat and some electric, and groceries, and healthcare, if that is provided separately.

Basic Income should never be enough to live comfortably on with no drain on savings, at least until we've reached a place where we don't need human labor for very many tasks (if ever). I say this as an avid supporter of a basic income.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the rich would rather pay higher taxes than face civil unrest from the ever-increasing fraction of the population that can't find work.

Money and business moves to where it's most welcome for the same reason people move to neighborhoods with low rates of theft (after all, taxation and inflationary monetary policy is theft no matter which way it's painted). The reason people can't find work now is due to the failures of central planning, not the lack of it. Communist and hard-socialist countries all have tried the basic income idea and failed. The onl…

The reason people can't find work now is due to the failures of central planning, not the lack of it.

How can you ignore globalization and automation? Even if you think those things have had no impact to date, they undoubtedly will in the future, right? Particularly the latter.

Also, keep in mind that nobody is proposing communism. Milton Friedman advocated a basic income.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#108
post #53

Do you have any idea how many people would just not work, sit at home, watch TV, and collect their BI check?

Given 300 million people, it's prudent to consider the net impact and not sweat the details too much.

Say a policy makes 200 million people better off in some virtuous manner but creates 10 million free loaders. Is that a horrible policy? Say the value of the virtuous benefit is 10x the cost of the free loading?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#109

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

While I agree with the points you make, there are no easy answers here. The problem with technology concentrating wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people is that it gets really hard to tax those individuals. Partly because these people can move around easily and avoid your taxes, partly because it becomes morally difficult when the amount you're taking off one person is literally 100,000x what you're taking off someone else but also because, unlike the middle classes, the sums involved make it worth those individuals' time to hack the tax system to avoid taxes. Companies at least have offices or retail outlets that are stuck in your territory and can be inspected by tax inspectors and have turnover that cannot be disputed. So successfully getting at the proportion of GDP that the government needs to be able to give everyone a basic income may well be easier if you go after companies.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#110
post #40
post #19

With basic income, wouldn't the economy adapt to the fresh money supply and rents and other costs raise to account for it? It would effectivly be additional currency inflation by a different name?

Maybe instead of giving everyone cash, the government could provide people with a default shelter, food plan, etc.

> Maybe instead of giving everyone cash, the government could provide people with a default shelter, food plan, etc.

The problem that BI advocates see with that is that there is much greater overhead in managing a default shelter program, food plan, non-food-non-shelter-necessities-of-life-plan, etc., than just establishing and managing a single universal cash allowance plan.

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