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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#161

Post by imgabe »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

You don't ever do anything - not any one single thing - without a profit motive?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#162

Post by btilly »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

Do you want to live in poverty? No? There's your incentive!

You don't believe that is an incentive? Well do you personally do more than is required to survive in poverty? Could you work less and get by? See, the incentive works on you!

Where basic income really helps is with groups like single mothers. Single mothers have a strong disincentive to work - a job has to cover whatever they receive now, plus child care costs. If you don't have good job prospects, few jobs pay enough to do this. This is the fundamental economic reason that creates "welfare moms".

With basic income any job that exceeds the cost of daycare is a net positive.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#163

Post by dllthomas »

dragonwriter wrote: post #127
dllthomas wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic Income should never be enough to live comfortably on with no drain on savings, at least until we've reached a place where we don't need human labor for very many tasks (if ever). I say this as an avid supporter of a basic income.

> Basic Income should never be enough to live comfortably on with no drain on savings, at least until we've reached a place where we don't need human labor for very many tasks (if ever). Its seems to me to be self-evidentally economically impossible for universal BI to do this (which, incidentally, means it probably can't replace all existing social benefit programs, because you probably still want to have some progr…

It may be impossible, but that's certainly not self-evident. We tax things other than labor, and that portion is liable to grow as we approach irrelevance of labor - and not irrelevance broadly, but specifically as is necessary to provide that comfortable life.

That said, I'm not hugely stressed about determining precisely how impossible a policy is when I don't support it anyway.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#164

Post by dllthomas »

crazygringo wrote: post #123
dragonwriter wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive No, its not. > the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. It increases producer prices which shifts the supply curve to the right, but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products, and that price elasticity…

> but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products Of course, but there's still the "minimum profitability" that a business seeks to have. Suppose three firms compete to sell widget X, and consumers are willing to pay up to $10 for it, but the companies sell it at $5 due to competition (it costs $4 to make and distribute). T…

But that "reasonable profit" is itself determined by the other opportunities available.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#165

Post by gems »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

I can't tell if you're trolling. I would say most mathematicians and scientists are enthusiasts. Many programmers are also enthusiasts.

I don't even have to specify the occupation. All I have to say is that "some people are enthusiasts and would continue to produce anyway".

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#166

Post by InclinedPlane »

big_lou wrote: post #148
redwood wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My feeling is that corporations shouldn't have a disincentive to make money. Rather all ways of extracting money from corporations should be taxed at a high income tax level (rather than the low dividend and capital gains levels).

So corporations should have literally zero disincentive to make money? Is that what you intend to argue? Because that seems to imply that corporations should be completely unfettered in every conceivable way, be it legal, economic, ethical, or otherwise. Am I missing something there?

You're erecting a straw-man, stop it.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#169

Post by unclebucknasty »

FreakyT wrote: post #155
dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

I think that's just it. Under our current system, that's what people believe because that's what we've been taught to believe in order to make the system work.

But, if we were free from the need to earn income, would we all just curl up and die? Or, would we pursue other interests and make (perhaps even more valuable) contributions to society? In fact, when you look at the financial incentives our society provides, they are frequently misaligned with their net value to society. But, that's another discussion.

The author makes the point that even now, much work is done for free and given away (software, music, content creation and information curation, etc.)

Then, remember, this is just a basic, livable income. There is still financial incentive for those who desire more.

Not having to work to live may be the best thing to ever happen to the planet. :)

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#170

Post by dllthomas »

big_lou wrote: post #148
redwood wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My feeling is that corporations shouldn't have a disincentive to make money. Rather all ways of extracting money from corporations should be taxed at a high income tax level (rather than the low dividend and capital gains levels).

So corporations should have literally zero disincentive to make money? Is that what you intend to argue? Because that seems to imply that corporations should be completely unfettered in every conceivable way, be it legal, economic, ethical, or otherwise. Am I missing something there?

"Disincentive" is not the same thing as "impediment." This isn't to say I necessarily agree with the parent comment, but you seem to be responding to an overly strident reading of something that wasn't quite said.
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