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Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

defcon.org

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Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#141

Post by mpyne »

adventured wrote: post #118
javert wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

Not true at all. It entirely depends on what you're building. Build new tools to protect privacy. Advance encryption technology faster. Build new communication software to keep the NSA out. The list is practically infinite and applies to nearly every segment of web / internet / mobile / pc.

Doesn't the NSA do all of that too though? They standardized Suite B crypto, invented SHA-1 (and -0), developed SELinux, etc. etc.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#142

Post by dobbsbob »

mirkules wrote: post #40

I'm skeptical. For the past few years that I've been attending, defcon felt at some times like an instrument for fed recruiting while paying lip service to its original "underground" feel. DT's message almost felt like posturing to underline the latter rather than a sincere statement to curtail the former. I won't pretend that I'm a long time attendee (my first was DC16), so I would love to hear from some more season…

I went to DC in the 90s and almost everybody you ran into was doing something illegal, like the Shadowcrew guys and a team of motorola hackers I mainly hung out with. Almost every talk gave hommage to whatever current hacker was in prison or on the run, and typically was anti fed, anti surviellance and anti copyright. Totally different now because at the time felt like the whole culture was under seige by overzealous feds and there was constant rumours of feds watching the exits with surveillance like we were the mafia or something

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#143

Post by mpyne »

smokeyj wrote: post #14

As hackers we have an ethical obligation to refuse service to tyrants and dictators. Like mercenaries who profiteer off war, we should ostracize those who act against humanity.

We also have an ethical obligation not to abuse the computer systems of those less skilled than us, but that obligation has hardly stopped that kind of stuff.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#144

Post by asveikau »

bittired wrote: post #130
asveikau wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always amusing watching people talk about Ron and Rand Paul on the internet. Usually they haven't quite figured out that they're basically fake libertarians. Ducks

Libertarians != libertarians. The difference is that Libertarians are a party and libertarians like to party. :) The Pauls are fiscally conservative which is only 1/2 of the Libertarian equation. The party stands for social liberalism and fiscal conservatism. Basically this just means less tax, more privatized government services, and to leave people alone if they aren't hurting each other. Small-"l" libertarians are…

> The Pauls are ...

The Pauls are basically grandstanders. They'll adopt any pseudo-libertarian position that they think makes a good soundbite. They record will show that they haven't actually done much of legislative consequence. Anyone who takes them at face value based on the soundbites IMO needs to develop more of a sense of cynicism when assessing politics.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#145

Post by mpyne »

a3n wrote: post #30
ianhawes wrote: post #3

My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of Federal employees on official duty from FBI, DHS, DOD, NSA, etc.. that attend DEFCON (and related conferences) are actually not agents at all, but rather low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back. This is opposed to, say, recruiting CIs or surveilling targets. Source: I asked a Fed.

"low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back." And maybe those people should go home and rethink their lives.

"Man, I really shouldn't have designed that RFID toolbooth so oppressively.... I'll have to do better than that in the future. :("

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#146

Post by DennisP »

sigzero wrote: post #137
ethanazir wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just alert everyone that they will be engaging in a paintball event; and they consent to the assault.

I am pretty sure it doesn't work that way. :)

Maybe if everyone signs a consent form at registration.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#147

Post by msandford »

zeckalpha wrote: post #132
msandford wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ostracized by who? People in the media or regular working class folk who pay plenty but get little? My parents both work and make money and the only real benefits that they have gotten as a result of trillions spent on war is that they'll continue to pay taxes for the rehabilitation of the soldiers whose bodies and lives have been destroyed. They MIGHT collect on social security, etc but given that they're still at l…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Pau...

Okay, I read the link. What's the point you're trying to make?

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#148

Post by uxp »

mcantelon wrote: post #116
javert wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

While I think "1 degree removed" is better than the alternative, you do have a valid point.

Life is not binary.

Imagine you're in a room you can't get out of. By the nature of aerobic respiration, you're slowly transforming all the oxygen into carbon dioxide. Now imagine there is a running car in the room with you. Do you first shut off the car to prevent it from filling up the room with exhaust and carbon monoxide, or do you give up because there's no point in life?

You can either give up by selling all your belongings and begin to live on the street as a non-tax paying citizen, or you can do something to stop the things that are taking away your freedoms and liberties, or at the very least, do something to make it harder for those that want to take away your freedoms to do so.

I suffer from depression and have had times in life where suicide is a real option, yet I can't imagine how anyone can think "welp, I better give up now because there isn't a point in trying!" There's always an option. Exercise that option.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#149

Post by a3n »

mpyne wrote: post #145
a3n wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back." And maybe those people should go home and rethink their lives.

"Man, I really shouldn't have designed that RFID toolbooth so oppressively.... I'll have to do better than that in the future. :("

Your point is taken, not all security work is oppressive. And my comment was calculated to be over the top.

The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Because if your work supports these things, then you're destroying what you probably signed up to protect. Probably not your fault, the mission was hijacked. But now there's no way to pretend. So think about it, and ideally, act.

And if you're just designing tollbooth security, then thanks for your service. :)

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#150

Post by BWStearns »

alwaysdoit wrote: post #91
mcantelon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Absolutely. The hacker community should not contribute to the knowledge of those who work to undermine privacy and feed the surveillance-industrial complex.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some people working in government that are not interested in undermining privacy and feeding the surveillance-industrial complex?

There are in fact those people, in fact they probably represent the majority. I think when everything is said and done it is likely to be the case that all of this overreach was driven by either top-tier leadership or the political levels as opposed to some imaginary spooky minion bent on some mass-voyeuristic fantasy.
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