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Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

defcon.org

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Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#111

Post by mcantelon »

alwaysdoit wrote: post #91
mcantelon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Absolutely. The hacker community should not contribute to the knowledge of those who work to undermine privacy and feed the surveillance-industrial complex.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some people working in government that are not interested in undermining privacy and feeding the surveillance-industrial complex?

Those sorts of people can, like Edward Snowden, find their own way into the system.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#112

Post by [deleted] »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #94
RyanZAG wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, yes. Is it not ok to discriminate against someone who has joined a terrorist group and is actively helping them? Is an army medic not rightly discriminated against by the other side if the medic's side loses the war? Discrimination is bad when it's about 'who someone is', never when it's about 'what someone does'. Providing work and support in exchange for money is very much 'what someone does'.

So from your two examples, discrimination on the basis of one's employer is okay if the employer is not recognized as legitimate by the state, taxes are not remitted, etc. How do you decide if it's okay or not to discriminate against employees when the employer in question is legal? You say it's never bad. How do you know that? Is it okay for the IRS to discriminate on the basis of one's employer? What about other ar…

[deleted]

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#113

Post by Ihmahr »

javert wrote: post #109
mcantelon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Absolutely. The hacker community should not contribute to the knowledge of those who work to undermine privacy and feed the surveillance-industrial complex.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

As a European graduate this is what keeps me away from moving to the bay area. Maybe you also could consider moving to a country with less surveillance?

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#114

Post by mcot2 »

DefCon is a joke. Nobody with any skill takes that conference seriously.

This is a complete farce as one of the key speakers last year was Gen Keith Alexander. NSA was fairly open about recruiting directly from DefCon and DefCon leadership had no problem with it. Anyone with even a slight security background could have predicted Prism and other programs just by the AT&T whistleblower from the mid 2000's.

DefCon is just too big, too mainstream for any real technical value. I don't need to fly to Vegas to watch umpteen panel discussions with crazy EFF people.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#115

Post by icebraining »

mcantelon wrote: post #93
kingkilr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you defining things that are to the detriment of humanity? Which ethical system are you making judgements like that on? Does the scale of things that are bad for humanity come into play?

If you want to make a case for an "ethical system" in which mass surveillance is good for humanity be my guest (and PM me your email login credentials while you're at it: I promise not to use them irresponsibly).

You're not the NSA; defending mass surveillance by them is not incompatible with not trusting you with one's email account.

Not that I defend mass government surveillance, I'm just tired of that pseudo-argument.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#116

Post by mcantelon »

javert wrote: post #109
mcantelon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Absolutely. The hacker community should not contribute to the knowledge of those who work to undermine privacy and feed the surveillance-industrial complex.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

While I think "1 degree removed" is better than the alternative, you do have a valid point.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#117

Post by mcantelon »

icebraining wrote: post #115
mcantelon wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to make a case for an "ethical system" in which mass surveillance is good for humanity be my guest (and PM me your email login credentials while you're at it: I promise not to use them irresponsibly).

You're not the NSA; defending mass surveillance by them is not incompatible with not trusting you with one's email account. Not that I defend mass government surveillance, I'm just tired of that pseudo-argument.

The NSA is made up on individuals like you or me and Edward Snowden has made the case that there's little preventing any insider from accessing what they want on whomever they want. As the surveillance state becomes an accepted part of modern society there will be those who seek involvement in it expressly for the purpose of abusing or exploiting their power.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#118

Post by adventured »

javert wrote: post #109
mcantelon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Absolutely. The hacker community should not contribute to the knowledge of those who work to undermine privacy and feed the surveillance-industrial complex.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

Not true at all. It entirely depends on what you're building.

Build new tools to protect privacy. Advance encryption technology faster. Build new communication software to keep the NSA out. The list is practically infinite and applies to nearly every segment of web / internet / mobile / pc.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#119

Post by wwhitman »

Ihmahr wrote: post #113
javert wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with your argument. However, this seems to imply that all American hackers/entrepreneurs/etc.need to move to remote cabins in Montana and stop contributing to society, because anyone who contributes to society in America is directly supporting this system (albeit, 1 degree removed from those working directly for the government). I currently don't know a way around this problem, and I don't actually…

As a European graduate this is what keeps me away from moving to the bay area. Maybe you also could consider moving to a country with less surveillance?

Which country would that be?

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#120

Post by twoodfin »

mcantelon wrote: post #117
icebraining wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not the NSA; defending mass surveillance by them is not incompatible with not trusting you with one's email account. Not that I defend mass government surveillance, I'm just tired of that pseudo-argument.

The NSA is made up on individuals like you or me and Edward Snowden has made the case that there's little preventing any insider from accessing what they want on whomever they want. As the surveillance state becomes an accepted part of modern society there will be those who seek involvement in it expressly for the purpose of abusing or exploiting their power.

Actually, I don't think Snowden has made that case. He's asserted it, certainly, but things like the PRISM slides don't back him up.
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