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Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

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Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#91

Post by Moral_ »

chc wrote: post #55
dobbsbob wrote: post #21

Google the story about 7 cops in VA that went after a 17yr old girl because she was carrying non alcoholic fruit soda the cops thought were wine coolers. They handled this by breaking through her car windows guns drawn like they were seals going after bin laden lol.

Actually, it was a 20-year-old college student with a 12-pack of water, and they failed to break her windows because she drove away when the crowd of large men ran up and started beating on her car, and then they charged her with assault.

The charges were dropped.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#92

Post by roc »

rayiner wrote: post #86
roc wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why did the practice only catch on and spread like wild-fire after crime had already begun its plunge? And why, after crime has continued to drop dramatically, has SWAT-ification continued to increase (if not accelerated) rather than plateau or even drop in response?

Once you've built up an organization like that, it's hard to demobilize it. Public unions basically make it impossible to shrink police forces.

Blaming unions would probably have worked better, back before the banking crisis forced many communities to do exactly what you suggest can't be done.

That said, you do raise a good point that it's career-suicide to advocate reducing police budgets in the US unless absolutely necessary -- and even then it isn't ever well-received.

(Which makes the (in)ability to actually reduce staffing a secondary problem, at best.)

But none of that excuses continued growth in the face of plunging crime, let alone the acceleration in use of such tactics.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#93

Post by kefka »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #42
takluyver wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. Interestingly, in the UK, where regular policemen don't carry guns, most policemen apparently don't want to have firearms. Obviously this is a rather different culture, and there's a difference between a collective matter (should we all be armed?) and an individual matter (should I be armed t…

I think part of the reason for UK police not wanting guns is primarily what the UK police see as their mission: It is community policing, where UK police try to work within and with the permission of the community because they feel they're most effective that way (also called "policing by consent"). http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/policeNine.php Police carrying guns makes them "scary" to the general public, and as suc…

In a sick and twisted way, this whole US militarization of the police reminds me of Judge Dredd.

And due to the laws in which police are not subject to, they many time ARE the judge, jury, and executioner.

I would much prefer the UK style police, where they work with the citizens (cause, who wants a rundown shack of a drughouse next door). But I believe that is untenable, due to the prevalent amount of guns in our country.

It sounds like a lose-lose, where We the People lose.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#94

Post by winthrowe »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #50

Somewhat tangential: There has long been a tie-in between the military and the police. Former military members make an easier transition to the police, and a lot of policemen have a strong weekend-warrior, macho mentality and like big guns and things that go boom. Plus the rank system is similar, there's use of deadly force, and so on. The U.S. has also seen major mission creep in the military. Instead of going in an…

Here's a TED talk discussing such a military realignment:

http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_barnett_draws_a_new_map_for_...

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#95

Post by joe24pack »

roc wrote: post #69
rayiner wrote: post #47

How did we get here? When gangs and organized crime turned the cities into war zones in the 1970's and 1980's.

Then why did the practice only catch on and spread like wild-fire after crime had already begun its plunge? And why, after crime has continued to drop dramatically, has SWAT-ification continued to increase (if not accelerated) rather than plateau or even drop in response?

When EPA and Department of Agriculture have their own SWAT teams, you know that SWAT teams are more for status display between high level bureaucrats than for any real need to fight off the nefarious activities of Dr Evil.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#96

Post by mpyne »

rayiner wrote: post #89
nostromo wrote: post #80

Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know t…

> Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. Two words: public unions.

I'm not opposed to unions in general, but there are definitely some specific ones our labor relations dept. could point out that would correlate very well with your point.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#97

Post by noonespecial »

Spooky23 wrote: post #27

The SWAT issue is a different issue IMO, more related to politicians wanting to "do something" at the Federal and State levels. "Doing something" translates to "allocate funding". That money can pay for more cops/overtime, or stuff. Or it may be earmarked by a congressman whose donor makes light tanks to only buy tanks. The us vs. them stuff is related to the state of affairs in high-crime communities. Cops can't rel…

If you dress up a guy in like a soldier and tell him he's going to war, he's going to go fight one, even if his enemy turns out to be a 12 year old with a baseball bat.

Context leads action. Our police are deeply out of context. Bulls in china shops break china. If you don't want broken dishes, don't send in a bull.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#98

Post by wwhitman »

rayiner wrote: post #89
nostromo wrote: post #80

Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know t…

> Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. Two words: public unions.

Is it inconceivable that crime is lower due to more police on the streets and more criminals in jail?

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#99

Post by betterunix »

Spooky23 wrote: post #27

The SWAT issue is a different issue IMO, more related to politicians wanting to "do something" at the Federal and State levels. "Doing something" translates to "allocate funding". That money can pay for more cops/overtime, or stuff. Or it may be earmarked by a congressman whose donor makes light tanks to only buy tanks. The us vs. them stuff is related to the state of affairs in high-crime communities. Cops can't rel…

"The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift."

...and I do not want to have a gang of soldiers invade my home at 5:00am and shoot my dog. When soldiers are doing police work, police work puts the public in danger.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#100

Post by justinator »

makerops wrote: post #54

The job of the US' domestic police force is to serve and protect; the job of the military is to defend the nation against foreign enemies. When police forces become militaristic, the citizens become the foreign enemy.

The job of the US domestic police force is to serve and protect the status quo (NOT individuals). Be against that, and you're against the police. Police aren't paid to care what the status quo is, but the status quo pay the police. And who is the status quo (ask yourself)

The methods they use to protect and serve that ideal just need to be one step less that what the masses will absolutely tolerate. If they cross that line, you get a riot.

Police violate individual citizen rights all the time and usually it's just ignored. It's a sorry state of affairs. That's why I'm afraid of police and police actions.

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