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Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

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Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#51

So, you go back to the mid-nineteenth century and these so-called "factory girls," young girls working in the Lowell [Massachusetts] mills, were reading serious contemporary literature. They recognized that the point of the system was to turn them into tools who would be manipulated, degraded, kicked around, and so on. Source? My impression was that the point of the system was to make money, and that the girls were a…

the girls were adequately treated

Did you even read the Wikipedia link you cited? The one which says this:

Conditions in the Lowell mills were severe by modern American standards. Employees worked from five am until seven pm, for an average 73 hours per week. Each room usually had 80 women working at machines, with two male overseers managing the operation. The noise of the machines was described by one worker as "something frightful and infernal", and although the rooms were hot, windows were often kept closed during the summer so that conditions for thread work remained optimal. The air, meanwhile, was filled with particles of thread and cloth.

About 25 women lived in each boardinghouse, with up to six sharing a bedroom. One worker described her quarters as "a small, comfortless, half-ventilated apartment containing some half a dozen occupants"...

Women were also given opportunities to attend concerts and lectures, in addition to experiencing city life. Still, at least one observer reported that most women worked so that a male relative could obtain an education. "I have known more than one to give every cent of her wages," she writes, "month after month, to her brother, that he might get the education necessary to enter some profession."

Yeah, I guess this is more than adequate by the standards of a slave. Which is exactly Chomsky's point -- and the point of the contemporary writers and labor organizers which he is citing:

The Lowell girls' organizing efforts were notable not only for the "unfeminine" participation of women, but also for the political framework used to appeal to the public. Framing their struggle for shorter work days and better pay as a matter of rights and personal dignity, they sought to place themselves in the larger context of the American Revolution. During the 1834 "turn-out" or strike – they warned that "the oppressing hand of avarice would enslave us,"...

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#52
post #39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with "both sometimes make useful and thought-provoking points". The problem is that these people create true believers. The world could really use sane alternate viewpoints -- and we mainly get lots of conspiracy theorists unable to change viewpoints.

I would be interested in a citation for this observation as far as Coulter goes.

I am European, so the only thing I know about Coulter is that she is some form of right wing crazy; a less formally polite Chomsky... :-)

That is also more than I care to know; the US extreme left/right looks equally insane. I just wish neither was popular here. But I guess you get the good with the bad.

I agreed with a quote as a way of saying that they generate hypotheses that probably aren't correct, but potentially fruitful to work from.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#53
post #38

CHOMSKY: First of all, I'm usually fuming inside, so what you see on the outside isn't necessarily what's inside. But as far as questions, the only thing I ever get irritated about is elite intellectuals, the stuff they do I do find irritating. Oh, the irony

Only ironic if you take it out of context: BARSAMIAN: ....You're very patient with people, particularly people who ask the most inane kinds of questions. Is this something you've cultivated? CHOMSKY: First of all, I'm usually fuming inside, so what you see on the outside isn't necessarily what's inside. But as far as questions, the only thing I ever get irritated about is elite intellectuals, the stuff they do I do f…

I disagree with your interpretation: according to his reply, the inane questions come from the non-elites, people with "intellectual confinement", and so on.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#54
One of Chomsky's strongest works as a non-linguist is his "American Power and the New Mandarins." (1967, 1968) In it you can find sections titled: "On the responsibility of intellectuals" and "some thoughts on Intellectuals and the Schools." He also co-authored "Manufacturing Consent."

In "Power" he relays an anecdote about seeing, in the Smithsonian, I believe, an exhibit wherein museum goers could interact with a (Vietnamese) jungle scene. The interaction was to take hold of a 50 caliber mounted in a mock-up of a helicopter and shoot at villagers. That exhibit was designed and constructed by someone. Presumably someone who had a "good job" at the museum.

We are designers, most of us. And I for one can't help thinking sometimes: How much designing do I really do? Clearly if I define myself as a non-intellectual, my responsibility doesn't really change. I know that I am both educated and trained but that has not yet made me free. So what do I have: Theoretical freedom without socialism. Oh, and illusion...lots of illusion.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#55

So, you go back to the mid-nineteenth century and these so-called "factory girls," young girls working in the Lowell [Massachusetts] mills, were reading serious contemporary literature. They recognized that the point of the system was to turn them into tools who would be manipulated, degraded, kicked around, and so on. Source? My impression was that the point of the system was to make money, and that the girls were a…

the girls were adequately treated Did you even read the Wikipedia link you cited? The one which says this: Conditions in the Lowell mills were severe by modern American standards. Employees worked from five am until seven pm, for an average 73 hours per week. Each room usually had 80 women working at machines, with two male overseers managing the operation. The noise of the machines was described by one worker as "so…

one worker as "something frightful and infernal", and although the rooms were hot, windows were often kept closed during the summer so that conditions for thread work remained optimal. The air, meanwhile, was filled with particles of thread and cloth.

Keep in mind that the source for this comes from a labor union organizer, and that this seems to be the worst they could find. From the original source, the quality of the air did not seem bad enough for the factory girls to be noticeably bothered by it.

You might want to balance your view with the writing of a woman who actually worked in the mill (http://books.google.com/books?id=RgwCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=f...): "I do not recall any particular hardship connected with this life, except getting up so early in the morning, and to this habit, I never was, and never shall be, reconciled, for it has taken nearly a lifetime for me to make up the sleep lost at that early age. But in every other respect it was a pleasant life. We were not hurried any more than was for our good, and no more work was required of us than we were able easily to do."

I suggest you read the book, it's a very different picture than you'll get from Chomsky or the labor organizers.

I'm not arguing that factory life didn't suck by our standards. But it wasn't some plot to keep the foot on the neck of woman or laborers. Life was hard because they simply weren't as wealthy back then, and so they had to work hard at whatever they did. The factory life was better than the alternatives, or else the woman would not have worked their.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#57

You can listen to podcasts of Chomsky. His live talks help put this quote into context. He speaks often at Universities. Some of the questions he fields are kind of sad, and Chomsky is quite civil to the kids that basically want him to refute his own positions. If, on the other hand, you listen to his debate with Richard Perl, for example, you hear his opponent, clearly a public intellectual and a capable debater, ta…

If, on the other hand, you listen to his debate with Richard Perl...

Or you could watch the Harvard debate he had with Alan Dershowitz on Israel where he wasn't particularly convincing, or better yet the passage of _The Blank Slate_ where Steven Pinker completely skewers Chomsky's nonsensical position on human nature in its relation to economic systems.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#58

You can listen to podcasts of Chomsky. His live talks help put this quote into context. He speaks often at Universities. Some of the questions he fields are kind of sad, and Chomsky is quite civil to the kids that basically want him to refute his own positions. If, on the other hand, you listen to his debate with Richard Perl, for example, you hear his opponent, clearly a public intellectual and a capable debater, ta…

If, on the other hand, you listen to his debate with Richard Perl... Or you could watch the Harvard debate he had with Alan Dershowitz on Israel where he wasn't particularly convincing, or better yet the passage of _The Blank Slate_ where Steven Pinker completely skewers Chomsky's nonsensical position on human nature in its relation to economic systems.

Thanks. I'll check these as soon as I have a second.

Re: Noam Chomsky: Education is Ignorance (1995)

#59
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're fuming because the rest of the word doesn't recognise that they're right.

Isn't that just an assumption? There are other reasons to fume.

Of course - I was just making a guess as to the most likely one.
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