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Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

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Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#41

Post by clicks »

rayiner wrote: post #35
clicks wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was well-assured that if I participated in Facebook all of my posts, private messages, likes, etc. were truly private and would never ever be released to the gov't or any other entity in any way, ever, under no condition such that they could prove to be self-incriminating, I would use Facebook. But I know that isn't the case, and hasn't been the case for a long time, and thus I don't use Facebook nor have I ever…

Is something you share with hundreds of people "private" whether or not the government can see it?

That was a typo by me. s/posts, private messages, likes/private messages, likes/.

I think a public post is public, so it's fair game as concerns the gov't trying to use it in whatever way they wish.

On a tangentially related note: you have said much about what constitutes an 'unreasonable' search as the founders may have meant it: that, e.g., one's personal e-mail contents, private Facebook posts, etc. are not as "personal" as one's personal belongings in a home (like a diary). I had a diary when I was young (teenage years), in it I wrote fairly personal things. I guarded it with all my might, and I think I was successful: I don't think anyone in my family ever even knew about the diary's existence. But yet I did not write things highly highly personal, because I was acutely aware that it was just a physical grab away from anyone. When I started using the Internet circa 2001 I finally felt and experienced a liberty that I never had had before. If you had access to my google searches you would have insight to my most personal being: what kind of porn I liked, my trying to find out ways to commit suicide (teenange angst phase), and so on -- things that I would never write in my diary. That is, I felt more confident about my privacy on the Internet than I did about a personal belonging in my own house. Now, that might have been the result of being afraid of a religious helicoptering mother and so not everyone's like me in this regard... but don't you think the founders would rather empathize with my situation and see things my way than yours? That one's Internet belongings should just be as personal as one's belongings at his home?

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#42

Post by vinalia »

Don't go to Venezuela! I suspect that Maduro will use Snowden for political gain (contra el imperialismo, yada yada yada), technological expansion (how does US intelligence operate, can I mimic their tech?), any other intel secrets, and leverage for any international trade agreements. After the Venezuelan government is done with Snowden, what's to stop them from selling him away for money/resources/diplomatic deals?

Examine the Venezuelan government's political history since 1999 and try to not get sick to your stomach (personal fav is Chavez doing a khrushchev impersonation with a shoe at the UN). Their government is horribly totalitarian (even if it is "elected") and repeatedly makes rash political decisions.

Venezuela is possibly the worst country to go to. Hold out a bit more for another location!

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#43

Post by jmduke »

pvnick wrote: post #21

Snowden never claimed to be an idealistic saint. He's only human. He's facing the same, or worse, inhumane treatment as Bradley Manning [1]. I doubt he really cares at this point the politics of the country that keeps him safe. I know I wouldn't. Besides, if this whole ordeal can even partially force the US to return to being the shining beacon of human rights it pretends to be, it'll be harder for countries like Ven…

Snowden never claimed to be an idealistic saint. He's only human.

I agree, but I think a lot of people (a lot of HN's contributers included) are nonetheless beatifying him, and also taking the logical leap from "this country is willing to provide refuge for Edward Snowden" to "this country has a better stance on privacy issues than the United States."

Besides, if this whole ordeal can even partially force the US to return to being the shining beacon of human rights it pretends to be, it'll be harder for countries like Venezuela to point to them and say "see? Look they're doing it too."

I agree that I hope this entire thing puts pressure on the US, but I think comparing the situation in the US and the situation in Venezuela is difficult. The level of overt corruption in Venezuela (and Mexico, and many other countries, both those allied with the US and not) is still impossible to comprehend in the US.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#44

Post by mpyne »

pvnick wrote: post #21

Snowden never claimed to be an idealistic saint. He's only human. He's facing the same, or worse, inhumane treatment as Bradley Manning [1]. I doubt he really cares at this point the politics of the country that keeps him safe. I know I wouldn't. Besides, if this whole ordeal can even partially force the US to return to being the shining beacon of human rights it pretends to be, it'll be harder for countries like Ven…

He's not facing the same treatment as Bradley Manning initially received, unless he has some military background none of us are aware of.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#45

Post by greenyoda »

rafaelm wrote: post #33
stfu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying that it is right. But I just don't know how a non-US compliant government can stay in power without questionable tactics. If you create enough internal fraction by pumping up a pro-US opposition and external through embargos and sanctions, even the most anti-US electorate will soon or later question their positions.

Venezuela has not received any embargoes or sanctions from the US. If anything, the biggest financing source this government has had to prop up the disastrous economy are oil prices and the income they get from the US as the first buyer of venezuelan oil. I would say that having one of the highest criminal rates in the world, highest inflation in the world, constant blackouts, constant basic products scarcity should…

For that matter, the U.S. even allows the Venezuelan-owned oil company Citgo to operate gas stations in the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citgo

Citgo Petroleum Corporation (or Citgo) is a United States–incorporated, Venezuela-owned refiner, transporter and marketer of transportation fuels, lubricants, petrochemicals and other industrial products. The company is owned by PDV America, Inc., an indirect wholly owned subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A., the national oil company of Venezuela.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#46

Post by mpyne »

stfu wrote: post #32
grey-area wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition. Do we really need to take sides here? Can't both states be doing bad things, just as other governments are also doing things that will lead down this path? The US has a reputation as a bully internationally for good reason, but that doesn't mean their enemies are with…

I am myself struggling with my post. But I just don't see how a nation can withstand US power in the long run without dirty tactics or becoming some outpost of another superpower. It looks to me that even the Snowden case has shown so far little to no consequences for the US internal situation. But it has shown that a counter point to the US perspective is internationally needed.

> But I just don't see how a nation can withstand US power in the long run without dirty tactics or becoming some outpost of another superpower.

Robespierre also defended the Reign of Terror as being required to defeat the enemies of the Revolution.

And either way, you can see in Egypt the reaction that occurs when people perceive the U.S. to be backing whoever is in power. So at least in nations that are already predisposed to oppose the U.S. it doesn't seem like there's really that much to fear of U.S. involvement.

Maduro got elected, after all. So did Morsi before him, and Correa before him. If the U.S. is really omnipotent then they are a piss-poor excuse for an omnipotent superpower.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#47

Post by mpyne »

grey-area wrote: post #12

I found this article fascinating, more because of the background it gives on the current situation in Venezuela than because of suggestions of Snowden's possible exile there. It truly does sound like Venezuela is close to dystopia, exactly the sort of dystopia that Snowden (and many others before him) have warned about. The routine use of surveillance on television shows to discredit opponents at all levels of the sy…

> While this might be useful ammunition for the US administration to smear Snowden by association

The U.S. won't even have to hardly mention all this. All they need to say is that Snowden fled to Hugo Chavez's native land, on purpose, and public opinion will be sealed in the U.S.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#48

Post by mpyne »

zwegner wrote: post #9
kposehn wrote: post #6

Excellent article. I would like to say that I was aware already of Venezuela's tactics, but I knew nothing until this article and the follow-up research I've done. Makes Snowden's choice seem rather odd/silly now.

Snowden didn't leave the US to escape surveillance (as he's made clear, that doesn't really help). He left to escape a lifetime in prison.

> He left to escape a lifetime in prison.

Like, Obama could just order the jury to convict him and order the judge to sentence him to prison? Neat system, that.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#49

Post by tptacek »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #13
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree. But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting. I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characte…

For my part, I believe the robots are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way!

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#50

Post by lambdasquirrel »

One thing I haven't noticed in any discussion is how the Founding Fathers of the U.S. turned to France (then a monarchy, and one less free than Britain) for help during the Revolutionary War. That Snowden might need to flee to one of these Latin American countries may be ironic, but it is the best practical option, just as accepting French aid was the best option back then.
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