Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

boingboing.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 62 posts

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#21

Post by pvnick »

Snowden never claimed to be an idealistic saint. He's only human. He's facing the same, or worse, inhumane treatment as Bradley Manning [1]. I doubt he really cares at this point the politics of the country that keeps him safe. I know I wouldn't.

Besides, if this whole ordeal can even partially force the US to return to being the shining beacon of human rights it pretends to be, it'll be harder for countries like Venezuela to point to them and say "see? Look they're doing it too."

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-...

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#22

Post by rayiner »

clicks wrote: post #16
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

I think that a generation of millennials, who don't particularly value privacy and don't see much wrong with the government monitoring certain communications when they voluntarily post every little detail of their lives on Facebook for hundreds or thousands of people to see Where are you getting this idea from? I'm a millennial, I value my privacy. Most of my non-CS/IT friends also care about their privacy. The key d…

Maybe it's because I'm on the fringe of what can be called millennial, but I don't see how sharing every little detail of your private life with your thousand closest Facebook friends shows a substantial concern for "privacy" as I understand the term.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#23

Post by grey-area »

stfu wrote: post #14

Yes, his is incredibly bad stuff. But let me put it into context: I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition. After the Cuban fiasco these actions became definitely less outrageous, but it seems save to assume that the US is not standing on the sidelines at election time in counties with a US critical governmen…

I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition.

Do we really need to take sides here? Can't both states be doing bad things, just as other governments are also doing things that will lead down this path? The US has a reputation as a bully internationally for good reason, but that doesn't mean their enemies are without blame or are fighting them for purer motives. Most states use the same dirty tactics, it's just that some have more power than others.

I really don't think you should try to defend this outrageous violation of privacy and democracy by saying it is somehow linked to standing up to the US.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#24

Post by fieryeagle »

Very useful article. This is nothing less to be expected from a Communist bloc nation. Public media smearing is just one facet of oppression.

If we are talking about Snowden as a beacon for freedom of speech and basic human rights, his move would seem like an unwise one. However, he is but flesh and blood like any of us so running to an oppressive state for relative safety is just fine. Survival comes before ideal.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#25

Post by jivatmanx »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #13
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree. But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting. I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characte…

More or less total surveillance and indefinite storage exists today.

It takes very little creativity to imagine this being abused. Choose a few keywords, and you can easily identify everyone in the U.S. with any significant civil libertarian.

Once you've got the list, all you have to do is prevent these people from getting political power, and voila, 1984.

The robot thing definitely takes more creativity to think of than that.

More generally, I tend to think that all Brute Force methods are the most crude, and a last resort even in a tyranny.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#26

Post by clicks »

rayiner wrote: post #22
clicks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that a generation of millennials, who don't particularly value privacy and don't see much wrong with the government monitoring certain communications when they voluntarily post every little detail of their lives on Facebook for hundreds or thousands of people to see Where are you getting this idea from? I'm a millennial, I value my privacy. Most of my non-CS/IT friends also care about their privacy. The key d…

Maybe it's because I'm on the fringe of what can be called millennial, but I don't see how sharing every little detail of your private life with your thousand closest Facebook friends shows a substantial concern for "privacy" as I understand the term.

If I was well-assured that if I participated in Facebook all of my posts, private messages, likes, etc. were truly private and would never ever be released to the gov't or any other entity in any way, ever, under no condition such that they could prove to be self-incriminating, I would use Facebook. But I know that isn't the case, and hasn't been the case for a long time, and thus I don't use Facebook nor have I ever.

There are a lot of millennials who plainly did not realize this. Whether it was willful ignorance or whatever else, I don't know, but I can tell you that a good bunch of them now are not happy that this is so. They just feel powerless in being able to change or challenge the status quo, which I guess they actually are. They could stop using Facebook, but that decision comes at the expense of losing out in other important parts of life.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#27

Post by unclebucknasty »

rayiner wrote: post #18
unclebucknasty wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree. But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting. I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characte…

You always prepare for the last war you fought, but that's never what actually hits you.

But, surely you see the dissonance between your assertions that people's concerns over NSA-spying, etc. are irrational and the fact that you're worried about killer robots?

I mean, if you believe that there are people with such an intent as to dominate us with technology, then why is it such a stretch to imagine that it's exactly what's happening now with the NSA? It would seem a little more practical for those megalomaniac billionaires to use something like the super-secret TIA, NSA-spying, etc. than to build an army of robots.

Does the government literally need to create a killer robot and stamp "USA" on it for you to be concerned? Because, you know they've done that also. They call them drones.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#28

Post by rayiner »

jivatmanx wrote: post #25
unclebucknasty wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree. But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting. I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characte…

More or less total surveillance and indefinite storage exists today. It takes very little creativity to imagine this being abused. Choose a few keywords, and you can easily identify everyone in the U.S. with any significant civil libertarian. Once you've got the list, all you have to do is prevent these people from getting political power, and voila, 1984. The robot thing definitely takes more creativity to think of…

If you think that it takes an elite cadre of civil libertarians to protect the country from 1984-style dystopia, then surveillance is indeed a scary thing. But surveillance isn't going to do anything against broad-based public opposition. If you think the masses of ordinary people are capable of preventing a 1984-style dystopia through majoritarian mechanisms, then surveillance is a lot less scary.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#29

Post by scarmig »

rafaelm wrote: post #19
stfu wrote: post #14

Yes, his is incredibly bad stuff. But let me put it into context: I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition. After the Cuban fiasco these actions became definitely less outrageous, but it seems save to assume that the US is not standing on the sidelines at election time in counties with a US critical governmen…

So because there is a "threat" from a foreign nation, the government is allowed to spy on its citizens critical of the government and expose them and ridicule them live on national TV? Sounds very similar to the "terrorist threat" excuse another surveillance state is using.

I'm torn. Venezuela's government has had more than its fair share of real coup attempts in the recent past, so there is an actual non-imaginary threat there, instead of terrorist bogeymen.

The fact that Chavez and his boys did launch one of those coups originally, though, makes me less inclined to give benefit of the doubt. Why should I have to take sides between two groups of bad guys? There's an honor in condemning everyone who violates human rights.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#30

Post by gasull »

scarmig wrote: post #29
rafaelm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because there is a "threat" from a foreign nation, the government is allowed to spy on its citizens critical of the government and expose them and ridicule them live on national TV? Sounds very similar to the "terrorist threat" excuse another surveillance state is using.

I'm torn. Venezuela's government has had more than its fair share of real coup attempts in the recent past, so there is an actual non-imaginary threat there, instead of terrorist bogeymen. The fact that Chavez and his boys did launch one of those coups originally, though, makes me less inclined to give benefit of the doubt. Why should I have to take sides between two groups of bad guys? There's an honor in condemning…

The US has also had very real terrorist attacks, like the 9/11. That isn't a excuse for a surveillance state.

Security is NEVER a valid excuse for a surveillance state.

Post reply on HN