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Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

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Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#11

Post by jlgreco »

privong wrote: post #4
ianferrel wrote: post #2

This is terrible and it's good that it's seeing some press as a result of Snowden's plight. But the author tries to imply that Snowden is somehow approving of Venezuela's policies. Seeking asylum isn't an endorsement of Venezuela. It's a last-ditch-effort to stay free against government oppression.

> Seeking asylum isn't an endorsement of Venezuela. It's a last-ditch-effort to stay free against government oppression. It's not clear that jumping out of the pan and into the fire is the best option though.

He didn't flee the country because of the things he blew the whistle on.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#12

Post by grey-area »

I found this article fascinating, more because of the background it gives on the current situation in Venezuela than because of suggestions of Snowden's possible exile there. It truly does sound like Venezuela is close to dystopia, exactly the sort of dystopia that Snowden (and many others before him) have warned about. The routine use of surveillance on television shows to discredit opponents at all levels of the system is terrifying. Who hasn't said something in private which could easily be taken out of context, and used to construct a plausible smear and destroy a career? Even the TV host who abused access to recordings, Mario Silva, was eventually hoist by his own petard - the whole story resembles the show trials and purges under Stalin, where no-one was safe, not even party members.

While this might be useful ammunition for the US administration to smear Snowden by association, and is probably darkly amusing for residents as they watch their government talk about asylum for a whistleblower on the very powers they abuse, I actually think it's far more interesting as an example of a surveillance state gone awry.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#13

Post by unclebucknasty »

rayiner wrote: post #8
narrator wrote: post #3

So in 20 years every country is going to be a surveillance state. How does this alter the sci-fi universe? Is every sci-fi novel taking place in the future going to have to be some spin-off of 1984 to maintain credulity? Did we all not want to hear that? Is there any room for alternate future visions of civilization given that they are all variations on a panopticon theme? Is this some sort of political singularity i…

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree.

But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting.

I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characterize people on the other side of that argument as conspiracy theorists, or otherwise irrational and on the fringe.

But, what keeps you up at night is the possibility of an army of killer robots controlled by a couple of multi-billionaire megalomaniacs holed up in a subterranean fortress.

Wow.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#14

Post by stfu »

Yes, his is incredibly bad stuff. But let me put it into context:

I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition.

After the Cuban fiasco these actions became definitely less outrageous, but it seems save to assume that the US is not standing on the sidelines at election time in counties with a US critical government.

Morales' European grounding shows quite clearly what kind of globally coordinate hell the US services can create for countries unwilling to surrender. Consequently almost no democratic nation is able to withstand this kind of internal and external pressure politics - as demonstrated so vividly by the outcome of Snowden's asylum requests.

And it still remains a big question mark in how far these three nations are not just going to use him as a bargaining chip for future negotiations with the US.

I am wondering myself how a nation could theoretically withstand US pressure without having a well oiled internal spying and propaganda machine.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#16

Post by clicks »

rayiner wrote: post #8
narrator wrote: post #3

So in 20 years every country is going to be a surveillance state. How does this alter the sci-fi universe? Is every sci-fi novel taking place in the future going to have to be some spin-off of 1984 to maintain credulity? Did we all not want to hear that? Is there any room for alternate future visions of civilization given that they are all variations on a panopticon theme? Is this some sort of political singularity i…

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

    I think that a generation of millennials, who don't     
    particularly value privacy and don't see much wrong with 
    the government monitoring certain communications when 
    they voluntarily post every little detail of their lives 
    on Facebook for hundreds or thousands of people to see
Where are you getting this idea from? I'm a millennial, I value my privacy. Most of my non-CS/IT friends also care about their privacy. The key difference is that they had been unaware up 'til now that giving your data to Facebook meant giving your data to the gov't. They had weird, inchoate notions about what it means to share and what some potential implications of that can be.

A recent Pew poll said 6% of Americans use Reddit. Reddit is overwhelmingly used by millennials, so just from there you get some idea of where millennials stand on this: and I think it's pretty clear (there's almost certainly some NSA-related post on frontpage any given day nowadays), they're not happy with their privacy being violated.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#17

Post by alan_cx »

kposehn wrote: post #6

Excellent article. I would like to say that I was aware already of Venezuela's tactics, but I knew nothing until this article and the follow-up research I've done. Makes Snowden's choice seem rather odd/silly now.

And your sensible, viable alternative country is?

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#18

Post by rayiner »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #13
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more than a few steps from surveillance of Facebook accounts to Orwellian dystopia. There is more to 1984 than just surveillance (mind control, etc). Whether one leads inexorably to the other depends in large part on what you think of democracy. If you think that an educated people can be easily manipulated and controlled with doublespeak, as they are in 1984, then some sort of dystopia is likely, and frank…

I seldom agree with you (I think maybe once), and the first paragraph of this post alone is loaded with statements with which I'd disagree. But you cannot be accused of being uninteresting. I mean, you spend so much time here smacking down people's concerns about very real things that are happening in the news as we speak. NSA-spying, growing government power, curtailed liberties, etc. You have a tendency to characte…

You always prepare for the last war you fought, but that's never what actually hits you.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#19

Post by rafaelm »

stfu wrote: post #14

Yes, his is incredibly bad stuff. But let me put it into context: I would love to read a similar run down on what amount of money, intelligence and human resources the US has pured so far in the Venezuelan opposition. After the Cuban fiasco these actions became definitely less outrageous, but it seems save to assume that the US is not standing on the sidelines at election time in counties with a US critical governmen…

So because there is a "threat" from a foreign nation, the government is allowed to spy on its citizens critical of the government and expose them and ridicule them live on national TV?

Sounds very similar to the "terrorist threat" excuse another surveillance state is using.

Re: Venezuela: My experience in the surveillance state

#20

Post by jf271 »

narrator wrote: post #3

So in 20 years every country is going to be a surveillance state. How does this alter the sci-fi universe? Is every sci-fi novel taking place in the future going to have to be some spin-off of 1984 to maintain credulity? Did we all not want to hear that? Is there any room for alternate future visions of civilization given that they are all variations on a panopticon theme? Is this some sort of political singularity i…

Google "nicaragua neighborhood watch". It doesn't need to be high tech.
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