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Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

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Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#351

Post by hdctambien »

aroch wrote: post #333
curveship wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car drivers routinely ignore certain rules too: speed limits, full stops at stop signs, etc. They do this because doing so is mostly safe. It's the same with bicyclists: the rules they ignore are mostly safe too. The confusion is that, because cars and bikes are different, the rules that are safe to bend are different in each case.

That's all well and good, but when was the last time you saw a cyclist getting pulled over for running a stop sign? Or speeding (Which they tend to do down the large hills we have, and then continue on to blast through intersections at 40+)? I can tell you the last time I saw a car getting pulled over, just a few hours ago. Just because you think it's 'safe' to bend the rules, doesn't make it safe or legal. It's high…

A buddy of mine biked to work from Somerville to Boston and he got a ticket from an officer in Cambridge. He had stopped at a red light, but his tire was over the stop line.

Just because you don't see it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Same guy was almost destroyed by a truck as we were riding through an intersection with the green light because the truck decided to speed up for the yellow light and run the red light.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#353

Post by dllthomas »

alxndr wrote: post #339
lttlrck wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop being obtuse.

I wonder if someone could find stats on how many car-on-car collisions are caused by avoiding a bicycle, and compare that to how many car-on-bicycle collisions are caused by a swerving bicyclist (or any cause, really). And then look at the resulting injuries.

No one is disputing that a reckless bicyclist is a danger to themselves. The question is how much of a danger they are to others, because more people feel more okay intervening when someone is presenting a danger to others.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#354

Post by bagels »

baddox wrote: post #311
bagels wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excepting of course, the millions of intersections and driveways. You know, besides those.

Well, pedestrians already have separate thoroughfares and are not allowed on roads, right? What's the difference?

(like we already mostly have for pedestrians)

If you're talking about sidewalks, it's barely separate, as in a city there are conflicting paths between the road and the sidewalk every dozen feet (every driveway or intersection).

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#355

Post by resu_nimda »

king_jester wrote: post #345
resu_nimda wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because you perceive the public roads as "car roads" and driving as "normal" doesn't make it so Why not? The roads were built for cars. Driving on them isn't just "convenient," it's exactly what was intended to happen. Don't get me wrong, there should absolutely be more bike lanes and other considerations so that cyclists can travel safely. But, the infrastructure in its current state is definitely built aroun…

> Why not? The roads were built for cars. It is amazing how the marketing of car culture change people's perception of this. No, roads were not developed for cars. Roads and streets where predominantly pedestrian avenues prior to motorized vehicles. Pedestrians, cyclists (when the bike was invented), horses, and trollies (again, when invented) all occupied streets and the space was considered public.

Ok, I should have been more clear. I'm talking about the road system that we have in the US today. As I said in my other reply, this point is a historical gotcha that's completely irrelevant to the discussion of modern road use and biker safety.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#356

Post by baddox »

bagels wrote: post #354
baddox wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, pedestrians already have separate thoroughfares and are not allowed on roads, right? What's the difference?

(like we already mostly have for pedestrians) If you're talking about sidewalks, it's barely separate, as in a city there are conflicting paths between the road and the sidewalk every dozen feet (every driveway or intersection).

Crossing a street is a lot different than traveling with the flow of traffic in a lane.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#357

Post by vanderZwan »

vanderZwan wrote: post #151
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

> I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. Like I said in the other comment: a bike is never a threat to a car. A car is always a threat to a bike. While your points are valid, saying that that is looking at "both sides" is an inappropriate way of describing the situation.

Ok, since I can't edit the comment any more: my whole point was that the threats are not equivalent, and describing the situation as "car vs bike" as if they are on equal terms is wrong.

Instead people are getting all anal about the use of "never" and "always", and use far-fetched examples where a car can be threatened by a bike when atttempting to avoid running over it and crashing into something else.

Way to direct the discussion away from the point I'm trying to make. Look at this Dutch national report on bike safety:

http://www.swov.nl/rapport/Ss_RA/RA47.pdf

The Netherlands has one of the highest percentage of people riding bikes with an estimated 14 million bicycles for 16.5 million inhabitants. It has one of the most developed infrastructures in favour of bike safety, about the safest traffic in Europe in general, and as a culture it is about as bike-oriented as it gets. Despite all of this, travelling with your bike is still 4.7 times more dangerous than travelling with a car.

I am in no way trying to absolve cyclists or pedestrians of their responsibility in traffic safety, but denying that they aren't inherently more vulnerable and that infrastructure design should emphasize their safety is absurd.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#358

Post by vanderZwan »

baddox wrote: post #347
vanderZwan wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will need to explain how the fact that pedestrians are even less threatening and more vulnerable is the same as implying this gives them the right to walk on the middle of the road.

I suspect that pedestrians are less threatening because they rarely walk in traffic (both because it's illegal, and because it's obviously dangerous). But for bicyclists, it's legal, and apparently the danger isn't enough to stop a lot of people.

The way you describe it, my impression is that the real problem is that you are not considering bikes as participants of traffic, but obstacles in the way of your car.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#359

Post by vanderZwan »

dllthomas wrote: post #207
danielweber wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bikes are threats to pedestrians. I've never hit a pedestrian on a bike but I've come close. I've also been hit by a car while on a bike (at a low speed, enough to trash the bike but I was able to hop off in time) so I have sympathy here.

Bikes injure pedestrians fairly often. My understanding is they rarely kill (though I'm happy to defer on either to someone bringing actual statistics to the table).

They don't, you need higher speeds for that (freak accidents don't count). Source: the lack of bicycle-caused deaths in the Netherlands.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#360

Post by Amadou »

opinali wrote: post #349
Amadou wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, talk about moving the goal-posts, but you aren't the original poster so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The right to freedom of movement is not really a right if it does not include by all available means. For example, to say you have the right to walk from the east coast to the west coast but not the right to drive a car (or ride a train/bus/plane - all arguments that have been made post 9/11) means th…

Driving depends on a huge amount of infrastructure which is provided or controlled by the government, everything from roads to refined fuel. As far as I know you actually can drive a car without a license, if you do that in your private property (e.g. suppose you own a farm or other big property with internal driveways), but not in any public roads. Yeah we pay for the roads, and oil infrastructure and other things w…

Now your moving the goal posts back to the original poster's claim that licensing is the granting of a privilege rather than regulation of a right.
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