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TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

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Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#51

Post by hga »

markbao wrote: post #24
nthj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to help remind people to put guns into checked baggage instead I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. Since the penalty is a $7,500 fine and not 20 years in jail, I have to presume this scenario is far more common "malici…

I feel like I am the only person on this thread that thinks the scenario that someone just happened to "damn, went to the airport and forgot that I had a gun in my bag while going through airport security " is pretty far-fetched. A pocketknife from a fishing trip? Understandable. Being forgetful about having a gun in your bag? While going through airport security to get on an airplane? Not so much.

Ever shot a gun? Done so a lot? Licensed to carry concealed? Carry a lot?

I carry on my hip at between 4-5 o'clock, and it is not a small or light gun (4" aluminum frame M1911 + spare magazine on other side), so I don't exactly forget that I'm carrying it, but on the other hand the fact that I'm carrying doesn't register strongly---mostly, it's about keeping my pants on ^_^. I notice that the TSA's Instagram page shows small guns (smaller than mine) with one possible exception, and states all but the derringers were found in carry on bags.

Carrying is something you get accustomed to, and a lot of people get complacent. Massad Ayoob in his safety video talks about it becoming like "Fluffy", your pet dog or whatever.

With 43 states as of today (Illinois) having de jure or de facto shall issue regimes (plus much upstate New York, rural California and Massachusetts (!), and Rhode Island is confused), well more than 2/3rds of the population can legally carry concealed. As of last summer Clayton Cramer and the GAO independently estimated 7.5 and 8 million people have concealed carry licenses. That number is skyrocketing based on all reports, Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming and as of this month Arkansas don't even require a license, and Illinois will be adding upwards of 10 million citizens eligible.

Yow, now 8 out of the top 10 states by population, all but California (1) and New York (3), all but 5 out of the top 20.

So, yeah, that many people, I can believe that much forgetfulness. Also, a lot of people forget spare magazines (with or without ammo), which are also in the same category.

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#52

Post by hga »

doktrin wrote: post #26
nthj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to help remind people to put guns into checked baggage instead I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. Since the penalty is a $7,500 fine and not 20 years in jail, I have to presume this scenario is far more common "malici…

> I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. I'm sure this accounts for the majority of weapon seizures, but this doesn't make them invalid. I would not be comfortable with improperly stored loaded weapons bouncing around an ov…

Well, you might not be comfortable, but you are safe. For all the usual reasons, including of course the plaintiff's bar, all handguns of modern design (and most not so modern) are safe when dropped loaded. It is a bit too easy to drop something you're holding in your hands onto a hard surface....

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#53

Post by doktrin »

hga wrote: post #52
doktrin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. I'm sure this accounts for the majority of weapon seizures, but this doesn't make them invalid. I would not be comfortable with improperly stored loaded weapons bouncing around an ov…

Well, you might not be comfortable, but you are safe. For all the usual reasons, including of course the plaintiff's bar, all handguns of modern design (and most not so modern) are safe when dropped loaded. It is a bit too easy to drop something you're holding in your hands onto a hard surface....

We're not talking about a simple hard surface. We're talking about a handgun inside a bag filled with other miscellaneous items which is then jostled and pushed around.

You could argue the chance of an accidental discharge is low, but it's certainly meaningful enough to warrant caution. All the more so given the consequences of accidental discharge inside an airplane cabin.

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#54

Post by bathat »

DanBC wrote: post #32
nthj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to help remind people to put guns into checked baggage instead I have to wonder how many of the firearms they stop are just regular law-abiding concealed handgun license bearers who, in their rush to get to the airport, forgot that they keep a loaded firearm in their purse, briefcase, or backpack. Since the penalty is a $7,500 fine and not 20 years in jail, I have to presume this scenario is far more common "malici…

> This would be a very easy statistic to publish, too (only 10% of the people we stopped were even licensed to carry a handgun!) As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not. I agree that these are just careless or forgetful people (or perhaps people making a point about their right to etc et…

> As I understand it TSA only do the finding of the guns and it's local law enforcement who does the rest. So TSA have no idea about who's allowed to carry the weapon or not.

I have no idea if this is true, but let's assume it is.

So what? How does that prevent TSA's Office of Public Relations from following up with law enforcement after the fact? Is there some law of which I'm unaware that prevents the TSA from asking the local PD for statistics about this sort of thing?

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#55

Post by hga »

doktrin wrote: post #53
hga wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you might not be comfortable, but you are safe. For all the usual reasons, including of course the plaintiff's bar, all handguns of modern design (and most not so modern) are safe when dropped loaded. It is a bit too easy to drop something you're holding in your hands onto a hard surface....

We're not talking about a simple hard surface. We're talking about a handgun inside a bag filled with other miscellaneous items which is then jostled and pushed around. You could argue the chance of an accidental discharge is low , but it's certainly meaningful enough to warrant caution. All the more so given the consequences of accidental discharge inside an airplane cabin.

All standard carry models I'm familiar with either have a hard trigger pull, or have a manual safety. I'll grant you that someone carrying the latter had better have it in a holster or some arrangement where the safety can't get pushed off ... but then again, if this is how they normally carry, e.g. a normal purse, if they don't do that they're always in danger of a negligent discharge. And there are modified guns out there with unreasonably light trigger pulls, but the same considerations above for protecting a manual safety hold.

So I'd say "very low", while agreeing that it's not zero.

BTW, it's almost never an accidental discharge, almost always a negligent one, and in this hypothetical case most certainly so.

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#57

Post by freehunter »

nthj wrote: post #29
freehunter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, they're not regular law-abiding citizens if they're bringing a loaded gun into an airport and attempting to get on a plane with it. As much as I would love to see the TSA disappear tomorrow, some might argue that carelessness should be punished more often than it actually is...

Sure, happy to be pedantic. I meant "regular, non-malicious, normally law-abiding citizens, obviously in violation of the law this time, but not intentionally, because they got stressed out trying to make their flight on time and overlooked a (admittedly very serious) item in their bag." There are so many laws on the books these days I'm sure even my Grandma could be locked up for a couple decades.

I actually wasn't trying to be overly pedantic. Bringing a loaded weapon into an airport, a school, a courthouse, etc is going above and beyond "whoops". I could overlook running through a four-way yield intersection. I could overlook tossing my lit cigarette out the window when I'm finished with it. I could overlook parking too close to a stop sign. 999,999 times out of a million, nothing will go wrong. But that one time it does go wrong, people die.

Yeah, there's a thousand laws on the books that everyone breaks and there's no real repercussions even in the worst case scenario. Bringing a loaded weapon into a weapon-free zone is not one of them. I say this as a holder of a concealed carry permit. You might as well be yelling "fire" in a theater if you drop your purse and that gun falls out.

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#58

Post by freehunter »

jlgreco wrote: post #50
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you forget you're carrying a loaded firearm you shouldn't be carrying one in the first place. Such responsibility should not be dealt with lightly, if you're not aware that you have it you are also not aware when you lose it.

Is that a special case for firearms, or do you think the same of pocket knives?

A pocket knife tends not to have the chance that it could plunge itself into someone's heart from a distance. Hurting someone with a knife is a pretty active offense, especially a pocket knife. Guns can and do go off without a human intentionally pulling the trigger.

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#59

Post by freehunter »

staunch wrote: post #34
markbao wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I am the only person on this thread that thinks the scenario that someone just happened to "damn, went to the airport and forgot that I had a gun in my bag while going through airport security " is pretty far-fetched. A pocketknife from a fishing trip? Understandable. Being forgetful about having a gun in your bag? While going through airport security to get on an airplane? Not so much.

Literally millions of Americans carry guns legally as part of their everyday routine. It's not surprising that dozens of them a week forget that they have it on them when they go to the airport.

Funny that they bring their toothbrush and remember that the white zone is for loading and unloading of passengers only, but they miss all the signs saying "Please don't bring a loaded gun through airport security".

Re: TSA's gun policy: Confiscate it, Instagram it

#60

Post by jlgreco »

freehunter wrote: post #58
jlgreco wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a special case for firearms, or do you think the same of pocket knives?

A pocket knife tends not to have the chance that it could plunge itself into someone's heart from a distance. Hurting someone with a knife is a pretty active offense, especially a pocket knife. Guns can and do go off without a human intentionally pulling the trigger.

My point is that people accidentally forget to not bring / forget to bring things that are vitally important with no malicious intent.

I've forgotten to bring my wallet/keys with me when I leave my place, I've forgotten to wear my glasses before driving somewhere, I've forgotten to turn on my headlights while driving (in a well lit city, to my credit). People accidentally carry pocket knives through metal detectors.

None of these thing are something that happens to most people often, it could happen just once after years of correct routine. Theses absent-minded mishaps are just human nature. They are of course going to occasionally happen with guns too. I'm sure there are more than a few cops out there who accidentally walked through metal detectors while wearing their service pistol.

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