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Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

bbc.co.uk

141–150 of 192 posts

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#141
post #117

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

My dad is 75 and my mom is 73 and they are quite strong and active still. I don't actually think of them as old. In fact, my mom behaves more like a teenager in that she loves hanging out. Morning coffee or afternoon tea gossiping with friends or her kids is the best for her.

My dad has his own ritual. He wakes up around 6AM, goes to Dunking Donuts to have coffee with a croissant and then goes about his day to manage three apartment buildings.

My point: They are not old.

I'm 35 years old by the way.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the intended effect of that video? A proxy for human interaction?

They are selling it as a method for getting over shyness or fear of strangers (人見知り) http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00166NB0I/

It seems like an incredibly odd method for getting used to human interaction. Showing a bizarre staring video instead of actual human interaction.

I don't know anything about Japanese culture but just based on whatever random bits I've picked up - it doesn't surprise me to see a video or a robot used to avoid an uncomfortable confrontation with a depressed person.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#143
This is an anecdotal story about me:

Hikikomori, something I actually aspired to be. I love locking myself in a room with my computer equipment and not come out for days. Unfortunately, I have two or three friends that virtually drag me out to hang out with them.

The ironic part is that I'm actually the type of person that hates to socialize with people so I'm not really sure how the hell I ended up with friends that love to drag me out to hang out with them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed, I'm an extremely happy person. I just prefer to be along for the most part working on a software project. I do like to be around people, like in a library, but not necessarily interact with them.

This anime is very relevant [1]. The main protagonists is actually my hero and I kept saying to myself that that is whom I want to be.

What exactly causes this, I believe that I'm way too sensitive to hypocrisy, bad temper, and mean people. I've been burned too many times by people that pretend to be nice. People with bad attitude really get me depressed.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_the_N.H.K.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#144
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

80 is still above life expectancy by Western industrialized countries standard. It's also an age where if for some reason you are hospitalized (whether it's because of "natural" diseases for old age or because you broke a limb), chances are you will need heavy care for the rest of your life.

It's not above life expectancy for Japan, though. Avg. life expectancy of Japan is 83. The second part of your argument is still valid, though.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#145
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lazy" is also what kids with ADHD are labelled. I think "lazy" is a cop-out explanation, since it doesn't actually explain anything. Often the incentives are aligned so that it's in the kid's best interest to put some effort into homework. If they're not doing it, treat it like a debugging program: why aren't they responding to the incentives? Could be depression, ADHD, perfectionism/fear of failure, or a bunch of o…

Trust me, laziness is a real thing; even when everything in the world points towards doing the work being the best thing for you, you just can't be bothered.

Of course it's a real thing. He never said it wasn't. What he said was that it doesn't explain anything, and that's true.

Laziness is a symptom, not a cause. It's like diagnosing someone with a "cough". It may be correct, but it's pointless, because it's obvious and tells you absolutely nothing about what to do.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#146
post #9

Anecdotally, the phenomenon is exacerbated by many people with varying degrees of untreated depression. (A disease which Japan addresses shockingly poorly, even by the standards of Japanese mental health care, which is shockingly poor even considering that mental health care lags treatment of other illnesses virtually everywhere.)

It's interesting how quick people are to put a label on things: many put it down to 'depression' (which is somehow now a 'disease' in a fantastic butchering of language). Even the term 'hikikomori' is a nice label to stick on something that nobody really understands, so we can get these nice mental health experts in who can give us a name for something and help the problem go away. The current attempts to understand this, and similar conditions, are in my view flawed, and counter-productive. Before Japan floods itself with mental health care to 'fix the problem', I think the mental health industry needs a major self-diagnosis first.

I see such conditions as a battle between individualism and collectivism. The collective wants us to adapt to the behaviors and emotions of everyone else, which may conflict with the individual desire to be ones self (And thus, alone: the only place where we can be ourselves). Society wants conformity and familiarity out of fear of the unknown, and as such, we are quick to reject individualism, stick a label on it, and attempt to generalize so we can feel like we're back in control. The mental health industry is the embodiment of this collectivist mentality. It starts with a preconceived solution: that of 'normal', and infers the problems, giving names to conditions which lie outside of that considered normal.

If you consider that mental health conditions are never concretely defined: but instead a list of common symptoms is given a label based on statistical probability: you have the condition if 4 out of 6 of these symptoms apply, for example. The truth is this is all we understand - a very macroscopic view of behavior, emotion and chemical response from our bodies. Nobody really knows the fundamental constructs which define our behavior and feelings yet. The mental health industry doesn't let that stop it though, and is so sure of itself that it can easily apply labels and it can 'fix people', based solely on past results (which aren't that great). Ultimately, what defines whether or not an behavioral, emotional or chemical response is part of a condition is that of perspective: The perspective of those defining the labels based mostly on deviation from 'normal human'.

If we contrast the collective against the individual though, we might come to different conclusions about which needs 'treatment'. The collective favors false values like patriotism, piety and loyalty over actual moral values. It's greedy. The collective says one thing and does another. It's a serial liar. It pillages and murders. By any definition of the word, the collective is psychopathic. Yet individually, we have moral values. It's each of our fears that ultimately manifest into the collective, and the rejection of 'non-conformists' is part of that.

That's why we can have leaders, worshiped like gods, calling for the mass murder of innocent humans, and revered with medals of honor. At the other end of the spectrum, seemingly innocent young men and women who choose solitude, harming nobody but themselves and close relatives, are treated like the bane of society. They must be 'fixed'!

Japan is traditionally a very conformist society, and the pressures of the collective on the individual to succeed are massive. It's not surprising that at some point young people choose not to live for others anymore, but to be themselves - and living in the only place where they can be.

“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.” - W. Gibson

Also, lets not forget how often 'mentally ill' has been used as a pretext for authoritative governments to lock away dissenters for expressing their individuality: alternative views outside those deemed acceptable by the collective.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#147
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this version better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A12dH72757U Don't know what she say but I was paying attention :).

She says, 「零れてるよ」 (kobore teru yo) at the end. Which means, "It's spilling." It's used as you'd expect: to let somebody know if a sink is overflowing or if a bag tears open and things are falling out. In the context of the video... I have no fucking clue.

Hah, nice one :)

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#148
post #121
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a side note: his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). I found your choice of terms interesting :) Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;). May I ask how old you are? I am…

80 is the new 60 basically. Tangent: people think life extension will magically materialize with some singularity type event, but in reality it's a slow creeping thing. The single most powerful life extension technology ever developed is the cardiac bypass, for example.

We've gotten good interventions for a lot of things that will kill you that aren't old age. But if you've already managed to live to 90, your further life expectancy might not be much better today than it would have been in Ancient Greece. See http://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/your-body-w... for how bad things get when you age.

Some kind of medical intervention that targeted the actual senescence mechanism instead of just the other problems it causes would be an actual game-changer, and I don't see how we could get living past 100 to be very probable without coming up with one.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#149
post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

I think what makes hikikomori unusual (and the pattern is certainly spreading beyond Japan, into Europe post-2008 as well) is that it doesn't fit the traditional shut-in pattern. Being a shut-in is nothing new, but most of those are either very old people (who are shut in for partially physical reasons) or people with severe agoraphobia (who can't leave their houses without having panic attacks) or biologically-roote…

The modern conceptions of the Japanese, and the German, as efficient work machines, is one born of recent economics. I hesitate to describe the cause as specifically "corporatism", but I think you're onto something there:

http://www.anthonyworlando.com/2012/08/02/the-myth-of-the-la...

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#150
post #123
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I presume this figure does not assume you have a spouse or children to support.

Correct. It does not account for spouse or children.

Please do elaborate though - that figure seems about 10-20x too low.
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