Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dwarf Fortress in 2013

gamasutra.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 84 posts

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#51

Post by boomlinde »

axefrog wrote: post #24
exDM69 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

"There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span" No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not…

No, his assertion wasn't that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface.

And nowhere was is implied that not wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#52

Post by VLM »

axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

(Just having fun analogy time as I wake up, once I got rollin it just kinda got outta control)

I don't actually use C++, not since about 2005 anyway, but like many on HN that won't stop expressing strong opinions on the UI. The semicolons dripping everywhere are a massive UI problem. Makes it look like a Perl obfuscation competition. A modern language like Intercal does not use semicolons, well, not as much. They need to get with the program and use UTF-8 so I can program in my native Klingon. I'm sure this Stroustrup character likes his language very much, thank you, but he could make a heck of lot more money, for a lot longer, if he replaced the UI with something a little more modern and polished, like a mobile iphone app where you can end your statement lines with pink hearts and smiley faces. And C++ needs social networking and multiplayer.

C++ also has a horribly inconsistent UI, look at these two ways to add one:

blah = blah + 1;

vs

blah++;

How is the average noob off the street supposed to handle inconsistency? There should only be one way to do it; just like sex. And don't get me started on those Perl heathens.

Its just a hostile UI and C++ would be more accessible to the average person with a better UI. Because the only people who matter are the average people, F those outliers.

That's nice that some people have buckled down and learned all the peculiarities of the existing C++ UI, but we'll just have to abandon them with our "improvements". I have Stroustrup's latest edition of C++ and its bigger than my metro area phone book, which is far too long compared to the copy of K+R I got in 1983 or so which was so small it was mistaken for a copy of readers digest. Heck even "Modern Perl" sitting on my desk right now is only 280 pages in dead tree form.

Niches are inherently bad and we should all want to either conform or dominate those who conform, so its inherently, of itself, bad, if only a fraction of the population "gets" what they're doing. Just like art and music! Quantity has a quality all its own. Can't they just watch football like normal guys? I mean ten trillion horseflies can't all be wrong, or however that goes.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#53

Post by spacemanaki »

derleth wrote: post #48
tokenizerrr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, except it wasn't done well in this case. The game is great, the UI not so much. Some menus require the arrow keys to navigate, some +-, others hjkl. It's been a while since I last played, but there is a "Designation" menu which orders your dwarves to perform specific tasks. You want them to build a staircase where there was some rock before? Awesome, they'll do it. You want them to build a staircase after you…

> Right, except it wasn't done well in this case. According to you. Is it so hard to imagine others may disagree? Must you downvote?

Well, even Tarn Adams himself agrees: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1avszc/im_tarn_adams_o...

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#54

Post by spacemanaki »

axefrog wrote: post #44
pessimizer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their creation has a bad UI. The barrier is a part of the work. You could take the swearing out of The Godfather in order to make it more accessible, but what people would be accessing would not really be The Godfather anymore.

The swearing in The GodFather is an important part of the story. It contributes to the end goal of those who made the film. The bad UI in Dwarf Fortress is not deliberate. It is the result of neglect of that aspect of the game. People who play the game and enjoy it do so despite the UI. I have yet to meet someone who thinks the existing UI makes the game better in any way.

It's not clear from your original top level post whether you've played the game and are complaining about the UI quirks described elsewhere in this thread, or if you're talking about the ASCII art.

If you're talking about the interface design, keyboard commands etc, ignore this comment.

If you're talking about the ASCII art I would say it absolutely is deliberate. DF is actually a sequel (Slaves to Armok, God of Blood, Chapter 2: Dwarf Fortress) and the first game was 3D. They chose to make DF a roguelike ASCII art game because if they had tried anything else, it wouldn't be half as deep as it is now. The ASCII art enables the depth that the game has developed.

As I said, if you are primarily arguing that they should keep the ASCII art and revamp the interface, you can safely ignore this comment.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#55

Post by FatalBaboon »

robbiep wrote: post #18
axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

Totally agree, it's sad to see how companies tend to want to grow (alienating employees in the process), never let go of any client (giving them features beyond scope) and top executives wanting always bigger salaries (what do you really want with all that money anyway?)

Happiness, as elegance, is in simplicity.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#56

Post by Lockyy »

tokenizerrr wrote: post #47
derleth wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All UIs are inconsistent to some extent, like with menus, or with how the steering wheel behaves when backing a car up. All we demand is that it be done well, which is a tautology.

Right, except it wasn't done well in this case. The game is great, the UI not so much. Some menus require the arrow keys to navigate, some +-, others hjkl. It's been a while since I last played, but there is a "Designation" menu which orders your dwarves to perform specific tasks. You want them to build a staircase where there was some rock before? Awesome, they'll do it. You want them to build a staircase after you…

Except it makes sense if you realize that designations are for changing existing terrain and the language reflects that, so using it to "carve [a] staircase" out of thin air doesn't really make sense. Building one from the buildings menu in a space that has been mined out does.

I admit there are problems with the dwarf fortress interface, major ones, like job management. However this is not one of those problems.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#57

Post by d23 »

lusr wrote: post #39
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

Is this not a short-sighted view? A middle class salary they can survive on for how long? When that source of income dries up they'll be unable to continue working on their passion without spending time and effort finding an additional source of income. Alternatively, if they open themselves up to a strategy enabling a greater income they could potentially retire in a very short time with indefinite financial securit…

I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with you. It's a decision they've made. What else is there to say about it?

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#58

Post by Fargren »

morsch wrote: post #29
fleshgolem wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole dimension less than it does now. Still a great read though

I loved reading Boatmurdered many months ago; is there anything of similar quality that reflects the current state of affairs in DF?

Bravemule (http://www.bravemule.com) is a great read, and it's a lot more current that Boatmurdered.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#59

Post by Afforess »

lusr wrote: post #39
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

Is this not a short-sighted view? A middle class salary they can survive on for how long? When that source of income dries up they'll be unable to continue working on their passion without spending time and effort finding an additional source of income. Alternatively, if they open themselves up to a strategy enabling a greater income they could potentially retire in a very short time with indefinite financial securit…

>A middle class salary they can survive on for how long?

Most middle class people aren't really financially independant either. 76% of people don't have any means to support themselves 6+ months out if they lose employment. Why should they?

http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/index.h...

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#60

Post by boneheadmed »

exDM69 wrote: post #14
sage_joch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

Thanks for the encouragement. Think I'll give it a go, or I guess begin my descent in to losing (whereby losing == fun).
Post reply on HN