Dwarf Fortress in 2013 • Hacker News Board

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#41

Post by fleshgolem » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 10:45 AM UTC

axefrog wrote: post #24

exDM69 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

"There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span" No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not…

Completely agree. Dwarf Therapist kinda shows how you can improve the UI without dumbing the game in itself down

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#42

Post by pi18n » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 10:53 AM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #32

derleth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate bad UIs You hate UIs you don't like. Which is a tautology. The interesting part here is that you've managed to convince yourself that UIs you don't like are objectively bad, and that anyone who does like such UIs is wrong in some factual way, as opposed to being 'wrong' in the purely subjective way everyone who disagrees with us on a matter of taste is. Go too far in this direction and you end up with Jef Ra…

There are plenty of things about UIs that are pretty objectively bad. Inconsistency, for one. I don't think there are lots of people who like having to memorize multiple ways of doing the same thing depending on the view.

Unless it's clear how to get from one view to the other and which view you use is optional. Then that might be a feature :)

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#43

Post by INTPenis » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 10:58 AM UTC

boneheadmed wrote: post #2

I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.

I'm biased as a long time player but with a graphics tile set I don't think the graphics are any worse than your average DOS or console game from the early 90s.

The only problem is the input system but anyone who has mastered Unix can easily master DF.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#44

Post by axefrog » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:10 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #35

axefrog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

Their creation has a bad UI. The barrier is a part of the work. You could take the swearing out of The Godfather in order to make it more accessible, but what people would be accessing would not really be The Godfather anymore.

The swearing in The GodFather is an important part of the story. It contributes to the end goal of those who made the film. The bad UI in Dwarf Fortress is not deliberate. It is the result of neglect of that aspect of the game. People who play the game and enjoy it do so despite the UI. I have yet to meet someone who thinks the existing UI makes the game better in any way.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#45

Post by axefrog » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:12 AM UTC

dspillett wrote: post #30

axefrog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

> I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created. Would people care to experience it if they could? I've always assumed with this (and a number of other things in life) that being a bit of a niche interest (or in this case a lot of a niche interest) in part creates the niche interest. There have been man…

You falsely attribute a niche's draw to the fact that it's niche. I find it unlikely that people would base their interest in a game on its popularity, or lack thereof. If the game is fun, people will play it. If it's not, they won't.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#46

Post by axefrog » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:16 AM UTC

imdsm wrote: post #33

kaoD wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the ASCII interface. I love ASCII art, and they managed to pull a high information density. You have graphic tile sets too. Although fan-made, these have a great quality. The problem is the inconsistent input system. The same task uses different shortcuts in each menu, which makes it hard to remember. Even selecting rectangular regions of the world is done in a particular way depending on what you are doing.…

But the thing is, you get over that. Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? No. Would I make the combat arcade-like in return for a better interface? No. I play the game for the fact that it is infinitely replayable. I play it so much that the menu is now ingrained into my very being. If the interface was to change, it would confuse me. It would take a lot of getting use to. It could work…

That's good for you, but you ran the gauntlet (the UI) and earned the level of comfort you now have with it. Just because you're one of the brave (and extremely patient and persistent) souls who have done so, does not mean that having to do so is a good thing, or is not a significant barrier to others.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#47

Post by tokenizerrr » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:22 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #40

Sharlin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of things about UIs that are pretty objectively bad. Inconsistency, for one. I don't think there are lots of people who like having to memorize multiple ways of doing the same thing depending on the view.

All UIs are inconsistent to some extent, like with menus, or with how the steering wheel behaves when backing a car up. All we demand is that it be done well, which is a tautology.

Right, except it wasn't done well in this case. The game is great, the UI not so much. Some menus require the arrow keys to navigate, some +-, others hjkl.

It's been a while since I last played, but there is a "Designation" menu which orders your dwarves to perform specific tasks. You want them to build a staircase where there was some rock before? Awesome, they'll do it. You want them to build a staircase after you already mined the block? No can do. No warning, no error message, simply nothing happens. You need to go through the other menus, build a staircase and move it there.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#48

Post by derleth » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:26 AM UTC

tokenizerrr wrote: post #47

derleth wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All UIs are inconsistent to some extent, like with menus, or with how the steering wheel behaves when backing a car up. All we demand is that it be done well, which is a tautology.

Right, except it wasn't done well in this case. The game is great, the UI not so much. Some menus require the arrow keys to navigate, some +-, others hjkl. It's been a while since I last played, but there is a "Designation" menu which orders your dwarves to perform specific tasks. You want them to build a staircase where there was some rock before? Awesome, they'll do it. You want them to build a staircase after you…

> Right, except it wasn't done well in this case.

According to you. Is it so hard to imagine others may disagree? Must you downvote?

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#49

Post by cm2012 » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:32 AM UTC

morsch wrote: post #29

fleshgolem wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole dimension less than it does now. Still a great read though

I loved reading Boatmurdered many months ago; is there anything of similar quality that reflects the current state of affairs in DF?

There is a Hall of Legends on the forums. I recommend Nist Akath for humor and excitement. His fighting dwarves become unbelievable.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#50

Post by phantomb » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #27

axefrog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

> I hate bad UIs You hate UIs you don't like. Which is a tautology. The interesting part here is that you've managed to convince yourself that UIs you don't like are objectively bad, and that anyone who does like such UIs is wrong in some factual way, as opposed to being 'wrong' in the purely subjective way everyone who disagrees with us on a matter of taste is. Go too far in this direction and you end up with Jef Ra…

In interaction design we say that you can't design an experience, but you can design for an experience. We know quite a bit about humans, the psychology they approach an interface with, their physical abilities to use an interface. With this information and a target experience you want to design for, the design choices follow.

We can objectively measure things like whether a user approaching an interface can easily understand what options are available to them, whether the user can intuitively tell what actions to take to activate those options, whether at every point the user can tell what state the system is in through its interface.

It is absolutely true that if you are developing for, say, ascii-loving adult S.U.D. gamers your design requirements will be different than if you are developing for casual gaming tweens. But we can still say that the DF interface is pretty bad for the vast majority of users who want to play the game.