Live data from Hacker News

Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

theatlantic.com

171–180 of 227 posts

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad that I need a throwaway account to talk about this, but such is life. Spend some time doing searches on terms like "gender grading gap" and reading the recent research. What you find may surprise you, is consistent across multiple Western democracies, and can be summarized thusly: * When assessment is left to teachers, there is a grading gap in favor of girls; girls receive grades that are inflated relative to th…

Cool. Any good books on this you'd recommend?

Books are tricky since the required funding/publicity tends to mean that only people with reactionary/highly-conservative viewpoints can break into that, and come with their own views on why we have this gap and how to address it. Mostly this is something you'll find in academic articles and published statistics.

The US Department of Education's June 2012 report on gender equity is a decent starting point:

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/gender-equity...

What you'll find there is that the conventionally-assumed narratives don't hold; there's a lot more parity in enrollment for higher-level courses including sciences and many maths courses (and sometimes even a gap in the unexpected direction, as with girls outnumbering boys in AP science courses), for example. Girls are also more likely (and have been more likely for nearly 40 years) to be enrolled into programs for gifted/talented students, while boys are nearly 1.5 times more likely to be held back and forced to repeat a grade.

Judith Kleinfeld (University of Alaska, Fairbanks) has written a few articles -- though fully-cited and sourced versions are hard to find free -- arguing that a major component of perceived gaps in performance may also be from greater variability in boys; focusing only on achieving parity at the highest levels of achievement has meant that boys' original overrepresentation at the lowest levels has not only persisted but grown, and remains unaddressed.

A study at the University of Georgia published this year looked into why girls receive higher grades and lower standardized-test scores.

Summary: http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/why-girls-do-better-in-...

Full article (subscription required): http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/why-girls-do-better-in-...

Their findings indicated a persistent grading gap in favor of girls, based on behavioral rather than academic factors.

In the UK, research pointed to expectations and stereotypes as a source for the gap:

http://www.kent.ac.uk/news/stories/girls-believe/2010

Girls and boys both persistently believe that girls "are cleverer, better-behaved and try harder than boys at school".

And that's really just the tip of the iceberg. But like I said, spend some time searching on relevant terms and you'll turn up a lot of research that may make you question what "everybody knows" about gender and education.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#173
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is an interesting comment, but none of it is responsive to the submitted article's concern about differences between boys and girls in school. I have actually lived in another country, and I am aware by direct observation that that country has BOTH higher academic achievement by school pupils than the United States and pervasive recess periods during the school day when young children get outdoors and exercise.…

[deleted]

Educated citizens drive down the price of knowledge labor. Of course they do.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#174

As a father of two boys, I cannot agree enough with this article. I just wonder how I can send this article to the teachers at my boys schools without offending them.

Perhaps they need offending.

Perhaps. I just worry about it being like insulting the person serving your food. Tack needs to be used.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#175
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the kids take on an extraordinary workload, because long hours show dedication - but they're not learning effectively - instead they all cheat, bribe the teacher, etc. The appearance of working hard and actually working hard/effectively are two different things. Don't be fooled by cultures with endemic corruption. Germany obviously excluded.

How are they not learning effectively? And do you have any sources or evidence to back up your claims of cheating or bribing teachers? Workload isn't an issue. It isn't like kids aren't capable of sitting for hours upon hours, they do these things in front of computers and TVs, the problem is that the public school curriculum is flawed.

Have you not heard of the high incidence rates of Chinese and Indian students being notorious for cheating? Ask any computer science teacher's assistant.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#176
Overseas I used to go to school from 8am to 1pm with 40min classes(and I received much better education). In US I had to sit for over an hour per classs and until 4-5pm. Is this any wonder that kids can't sit from 8 to 4 with very small brakes in between? I didnt learn much in American HS, it was torture most of the day. All I wanted to do was to get my work done and gtfo /go home, but that system made it very difficult to do. In fact, I didnt care much for school as a result.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#177
I have a 6 year old daughter in a Montessori school. After a class observation I noticed the teacher spent a significant portion of her time just dealing with a few rambunctious boys, while all the girls in the class worked quietly.

Afterwards, I asked the teacher why they just didn't separate the boys from the girls, since they were obviously two different species at that age (at all ages?) It seemed to me that a class with only girls in it could learn faster w/o all the silly distractions.

The teacher got quite serious and told me that girls and boys are a form of yin and yang. The classroom dynamic was an absolute necessity to the healthy social upbringing of each.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#178
post #40

Are there any private all-boys[1] schools that embrace this side of childhood? Look at tiger cubs and what not: they play, they bounce around, they fight, they figure out the world around them through investigation and exploration. I spent so much of my time outside as a kid, but I also spent a lot of time inside on the computer. Both were amazing worlds where your imagination could run wild; especially in the early…

It would alienate some young boys, too. There are a lot of stereotypes in these comments.

Thank you, reading these comments and the OP makes me cringe with the sexism. I'd like some fundamental science proving possessing a Y chromosome and the male hormone tract in utero makes you behave so radically different socially at such an immature age.

My experiences with children in general (note, I'm in no way professional here) is that the domestication of girls is tremendously cultural from birth and up in how radically different people will treat a female child from a male one, even if they are physically indistinguishable (except the inherent physical differences) until they are 8 or older.

As a male who didn't have trouble in school and realized early on that just faking obedience and getting the grades would best enable me for long term success and didn't have some innate testosterone powered need to beat things up or break stuff I did not see some fundamental split between having a second X or a Y chromosome and your behavioral profile. People are different. There are boys and girls that will want to investigate and explore, just like there are boys and girls that like to memorize and convey information formulaically. Different people are different. Factory compulsory public education in prison like settings suits a very limited personality profile.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#179
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China the kids take on an extraordinary workload, because long hours show dedication - but they're not learning effectively - instead they all cheat, bribe the teacher, etc. The appearance of working hard and actually working hard/effectively are two different things. Don't be fooled by cultures with endemic corruption. Germany obviously excluded.

How are they not learning effectively? And do you have any sources or evidence to back up your claims of cheating or bribing teachers? Workload isn't an issue. It isn't like kids aren't capable of sitting for hours upon hours, they do these things in front of computers and TVs, the problem is that the public school curriculum is flawed.

Srsly? Cheating in China is so entrenched that there was a riot recently when it wasn't allowed: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1013239...

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#180
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically many, many children have sat still at school and behaved themselves. That doesn't mean that others should be stigmatized, but it's not like this is impossible and unprecedented.

They used to behave here 30-40 years ago as well. Getting your hands beaten with a wooden ruler is a hell of an incentive.

Sure they will behave, I can't imagine it produced a lot of motivation to learn and excitement about attending school.
Post reply on HN