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Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

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Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#151

Post by [deleted] »

sentenza wrote: post #125
kybernetyk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not because our Pirate Party is only known for drama and the media portrays them as an disorganized bunch of kids who fight over internal power. Not that the media would be particularly wrong with this. When the party was founded I had some hopes ... now I have given up on them.

Don't read the mailing lists, they're public and thus a trollfest. I was also somewhat disillusioned in the recent months, but that is over now. I went out setting up campaign advertisement signs in 2009 and I'm doing it again this year. This is our only chance. Remember, even though some of the Berlin scene wish to "reboot" the Pirate Party in a way that is more to their liking, it is far too late for that. The Pira…

[deleted]

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#152

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

abraininavat wrote: post #145
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of these nations are willing participants in the spying programs. They may make noises to try and pacify the electorate, but I doubt the governments are interested in changing much.

People keep saying this. A democratic nation derives its power from its people. These nations are not willing participants in the spying program. What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country.

>What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country.

Yes.

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#153

Post by abraininavat »

tobiasu wrote: post #149
abraininavat wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course! The government will go as far (and only as far) as it takes to quell the dissatisfaction brewing among the people. If that goes as far as real action, that's what will happen.

IMO that would be a too strong a response for a country that heavily depends on export.

What is your point exactly? I'm not saying they will. I'm saying they would.

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#154

Post by Semaphor »

cygx wrote: post #111
Semaphor wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or fighting for those positions.

Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger has been pretty consistent, though. If it weren't for their neo-liberal/laissez-faire approach to economics, I'd consider voting for them...

SLS usually does. But to me it always seems like she is rather alone in her party. And even she had some slip ups. If the FDP were a liberal party they'd never ally with the CDU as they are probably the most anti-liberal party we have.

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#155

Post by bayesianhorse »

muuh-gnu wrote: post #52
bayesianhorse wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Germany was more of a "target", and considering involvements of the German muslim minority in 9/11 this isn't very surprising either. Still I really don't like what the NSA is doing to us...

Considering the massive immigration of Muslims and their continuing radicalization instead of assimilation, the whole of western Europe including Germany is going to turn into an "enemy" 20-30 years down the road. Europe is an US ally today not because of the geography, but because of the Europeans. But the Europeans have mostly given up making babies and will in 1-2 generations be mostly replaced by more fertile Mus…

That's BS, pardon my french. Whip out your IPython notebook and do some calculations. In Germany for example, if you are very generous about muslim birth rates and immigration, we can't expect the muslim minority to reach 50% in the next 200 years. If you assume sinking birth rates among Muslims, as was the case for the past decades in Germany and most Muslim countries, especially turkey, the time span is too long to be still talking about Germans vs Muslims.

Same with the UK. What islamophobics also conveniently ignore is the unequal distribution and segregation due to subtle and not so subtle discrimination, similar to the Schelling effect. Basically, if London has more than 50% "immigrant" population (most of which aren't muslim), that's not any indication for the rest of the UK.

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#156

Post by bayesianhorse »

powertower wrote: post #132
arethuza wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think that if someone isn't "White British" then they are automatically a Muslim extremist. The ethnic breakdown of London is far more complex than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London At the moment, about 8.5% of London's population is Muslim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_London Also worth noting is that across the UK the Muslims only make up 2.7% of the population: http://e…

> I'm completely mystified how anyone could see this tiny minority as a threat... Paul Weston - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG77qpLi4oc There are a lot of people in the UK (near or in the parts that are "diverse", or "multicultural") that will disagree with you about the disproportionate amount of crime (murder, rape, mugging, etc) and destruction that is committed by the non-"White British", and the effects this…

The crime rates are often an excuse for hate-motivated agitation. But dig a bit deeper, and you have to change your mind:

Most agitators will pose some "fact" as "crime rate among muslim is double as high". Yeah, right, but still the rest of the population is committing way more crimes. There's no reason to feel more threatened by them. If you are going to get mugged, killed or whatever, most likely it will be by the majority population - except if you are living in a neighbourhood or city where the majority has segregated the minority...

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#157

Post by bayesianhorse »

PanickedOmlette wrote: post #80
muuh-gnu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the massive immigration of Muslims and their continuing radicalization instead of assimilation, the whole of western Europe including Germany is going to turn into an "enemy" 20-30 years down the road. Europe is an US ally today not because of the geography, but because of the Europeans. But the Europeans have mostly given up making babies and will in 1-2 generations be mostly replaced by more fertile Mus…

Spot on. I am surprised you are not down voted by the hordes of politically correct people here.

Really? Are we going to accuse people who uphold fact-checking, our respective constitutions and general political debate as "politically correct"?

I haven't seen an argument why we shouldn't extend human rights to Muslims. And yes, what most people who talk about muslims committing more crimes on average (which is true, if you restrict it to the relative proportions and avoid any proper statistical analysis) are talking about is a violation of constitutional rights:

It's impossible to punish millions of people for the crimes of the few.

Re: Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

#158

Post by bayesianhorse »

arethuza wrote: post #27
[deleted] wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Probably a reference to the Hamburg Cell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell NB From what I can see most of the members of this group were not German nationals

Yes, but they were living in Germany, and we do have a small population of salafists, among which potential terrorists can hide. A lot of these salafists are indeed German nationals, some by birth and ethnicity.

I'm also stressing that I don't find the surveillance "surprising", while I don't condone it in any way.

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