Going Dutch • Hacker News Board

Re: Going Dutch

#41

Post by biohacker42 » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:38 PM UTC

pragmatic wrote: post #30

lethain wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in rural Japan last year, and had similar experiences with stores being open or lack thereof. There were three restaurants and two bars. One restaurant never opened for dinner, another was run by a family, was closed at 8PM and was closed on Sundays, the third was run by one woman and was closed for dinner on weekends and also tuesdays. One of the bars' closing schedule involved being closed on the third Sund…

That's how it is in rural America (Midwest, the South) also. You need a large population to support 24 hour consumerism.

This is how it is in small New England towns also. I used to live in a lively tourist trap seaside city where everything closed after 9:30pm.

Re: Going Dutch

#42

Post by jules » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:39 PM UTC

rjprins wrote: post #23

miked wrote: post #2

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-... The NYT article doesn't make any mention of the fact that emigration from the Netherlands in 2004 was the highest since 1954. This makes me wonder if things are really as wonderful there as the article claims, although it does a pretty good job of pointing out the pros and cons.

The guy is all for harder sentences, more jail time, etc. Criticizing judges on these matters is like telling experienced programmers they don't code well. They know what works and what doesn't. The numbers about rape and manslaughter are all out of context, we know nothing of the circumstances. And lastly, since when was putting people in jail longer an effective policy against crime? Anyway, what I think the most i…

> But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want.

From what I see on the TV and read in newspapers this is changing.

Re: Going Dutch

#43

Post by iamelgringo » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:41 PM UTC

biohacker42 wrote: post #40

nw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the Dutch like their system, and I think it works pretty well for them. But as the article suggests, it works because they have such a communal spirit and sense of shared values. Americans have that individualist spirit and we are a very heterogeneous group with little in common beyond our love of freedom to roam and make a buck. Perhaps a small New England state could pull it off (and they do try) but to e…

Individualistic spirit my butt. Americans aren't a special and unique snowflake. Every country's system is largely an accident of history.

Please, don't make comments like that. This is hacker news: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Going Dutch

#44

Post by biohacker42 » Wed, May 06, 2009, 5:51 PM UTC

iamelgringo wrote: post #43

biohacker42 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individualistic spirit my butt. Americans aren't a special and unique snowflake. Every country's system is largely an accident of history.

Please, don't make comments like that. This is hacker news: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh geez what was it, the "my butt"?

I was too lazy to find more a classy way to call BS on a sweeping generalization that makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism.

Pardon my French, but if you don't like it vote me down.

Re: Going Dutch

#45

Post by lucumo » Wed, May 06, 2009, 6:07 PM UTC

jules wrote: post #42

rjprins wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy is all for harder sentences, more jail time, etc. Criticizing judges on these matters is like telling experienced programmers they don't code well. They know what works and what doesn't. The numbers about rape and manslaughter are all out of context, we know nothing of the circumstances. And lastly, since when was putting people in jail longer an effective policy against crime? Anyway, what I think the most i…

> But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want. From what I see on the TV and read in newspapers this is changing.

Yeah, there's a certain conservative movement growing which is strongly nationalistic, anti-European, against strange cultures and against what is called "The Church of the Left" (progressive, urban, and socialistic political parties). Highly annoying since _everything_ becomes adversarial because of them.

Re: Going Dutch

#46

Post by lucumo » Wed, May 06, 2009, 6:14 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #18

sfk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dissident voices are ruled out of order and successfully demonized (Pim Fortuyn), killed (Theo van Gogh) or face such severe threats to their security that they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages." The author con…

No, the author doesn't conflate anything. Yes, the people mentioned differ in many ways: gender, political views, popular image... But they do have something in common: they vocally attacked Islamic practices and were punished.

Yes, because the idiotic actions of crazy individuals are totally the responsibility of all people in a society.

Have you repented for the murder of JFK, Lincoln and some school personnel in San Diego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer) yet?

Re: Going Dutch

#47

Post by Nwallins » Wed, May 06, 2009, 6:19 PM UTC

biohacker42 wrote: post #44

iamelgringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, don't make comments like that. This is hacker news: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh geez what was it, the "my butt"? I was too lazy to find more a classy way to call BS on a sweeping generalization that makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism. Pardon my French, but if you don't like it vote me down.

> makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism.

It's called culture -- not genetics. Would you agree that there are several important distinctions between Dutch and American culture?

Re: Going Dutch

#48

Post by endtime » Wed, May 06, 2009, 6:31 PM UTC

biohacker42 wrote: post #44

iamelgringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, don't make comments like that. This is hacker news: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Oh geez what was it, the "my butt"? I was too lazy to find more a classy way to call BS on a sweeping generalization that makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism. Pardon my French, but if you don't like it vote me down.

It wasn't the language, it was that your comment was not thoughtful, interesting, intelligent, or even justified.

Re: Going Dutch

#49

Post by endtime » Wed, May 06, 2009, 6:34 PM UTC

jd wrote: post #31

pragmatic wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it is in rural America (Midwest, the South) also. You need a large population to support 24 hour consumerism.

In the Netherlands it's not a matter of population -- shops are not allowed to be open outside the regulated hours. I believe the law was introduced a few decades ago in order to protect the mom and pop stores (a misguided attempt to put mom and pop stores on equal footing with larger businesses. If the mom and pop store can't afford to stay open at night then nobody is allowed to. Because that's "fair".) Since gas s…

>If the mom and pop store can't afford to stay open at night then nobody is allowed to. Because that's "fair".

Any time I finding appealing stories of the allegedly comfortable northwest European life, I just remind myself of things like this.

Re: Going Dutch

#50

Post by biohacker42 » Wed, May 06, 2009, 7:00 PM UTC

Nwallins wrote: post #47

biohacker42 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh geez what was it, the "my butt"? I was too lazy to find more a classy way to call BS on a sweeping generalization that makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism. Pardon my French, but if you don't like it vote me down.

> makes it sound like Americans have some special individuality gene, while the Dutch are all genetically predisposed to socialism. It's called culture -- not genetics. Would you agree that there are several important distinctions between Dutch and American culture?

Yes, but not in that way. Let me put it this way, if you have the choice between breaking laws and breaking customs, always choose laws. I see the biggest differences between the US and Holland as legal.

Lets not forget that Holland basically invented modern capitalism and the US has many programs much more socialist then their equivalents in the so called social states of Europe.