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Going Dutch

nytimes.com

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Re: Going Dutch

#11

Post by gaius »

sfk wrote: post #9
miked wrote: post #2

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-... The NYT article doesn't make any mention of the fact that emigration from the Netherlands in 2004 was the highest since 1954. This makes me wonder if things are really as wonderful there as the article claims, although it does a pretty good job of pointing out the pros and cons.

"Dissident voices are ruled out of order and successfully demonized (Pim Fortuyn), killed (Theo van Gogh) or face such severe threats to their security that they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages." The author con…

Not the kind of person who should have political power.

That is up to the voters to decide, no?

Re: Going Dutch

#12

Post by lethain »

delano wrote: post #7

Some of the symbolism is a bit extreme but overall it's a pretty good overview of life in the Netherlands. There is a level of comfort here that I haven't experienced anywhere else however that comfort has both positive and negative consequences. This is the only article I've read that touches on that aspect of life here. And I'm glad he mentioned the lack of anything open 24h a day and rarely past 6 (some grocery st…

I lived in rural Japan last year, and had similar experiences with stores being open or lack thereof. There were three restaurants and two bars. One restaurant never opened for dinner, another was run by a family, was closed at 8PM and was closed on Sundays, the third was run by one woman and was closed for dinner on weekends and also tuesdays. One of the bars' closing schedule involved being closed on the third Sunday of each month. Grocery stores closed by 8.

I spent a lot of time thinking about how things must have been to live 50 years ago, and how much we've come to take (this very limited sense of) openness for granted.

Re: Going Dutch

#13

Post by davidw »

wolfish wrote: post #10
davidw wrote: post #6

This is the sort of thing that people can argue endlessly, and ultimately, unproductively about.

It's true that these arguments do seem to go on forever and very rarely does someone change their viewpoint based on these discussions. But debates on the value of incentives, the role of government and charity, and efficient resource allocation are important topics citizens would be wise not to avoid.

Avoiding them here doesn't mean avoiding them entirely.

Re: Going Dutch

#14

Post by delano »

lethain wrote: post #12
delano wrote: post #7

Some of the symbolism is a bit extreme but overall it's a pretty good overview of life in the Netherlands. There is a level of comfort here that I haven't experienced anywhere else however that comfort has both positive and negative consequences. This is the only article I've read that touches on that aspect of life here. And I'm glad he mentioned the lack of anything open 24h a day and rarely past 6 (some grocery st…

I lived in rural Japan last year, and had similar experiences with stores being open or lack thereof. There were three restaurants and two bars. One restaurant never opened for dinner, another was run by a family, was closed at 8PM and was closed on Sundays, the third was run by one woman and was closed for dinner on weekends and also tuesdays. One of the bars' closing schedule involved being closed on the third Sund…

Whoa, an irregular schedule to boot. You must have had to do a lot of pre-planning.

Re: Going Dutch

#15

Post by delano »

davidw wrote: post #13
wolfish wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that these arguments do seem to go on forever and very rarely does someone change their viewpoint based on these discussions. But debates on the value of incentives, the role of government and charity, and efficient resource allocation are important topics citizens would be wise not to avoid.

Avoiding them here doesn't mean avoiding them entirely.

Where best to have them then?

Re: Going Dutch

#16

Post by eru »

jonas_b wrote: post #5
dhoe wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does not mention this fact because it's not true: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=nl&v=27 . The net migration rate merely stopped growing.

Even if it was true, would that in the case of NL indicate anything in regards to its taxes-welfare state? I thought it was a widely held "fact" that the NL is overcrowded and that dutchmen should try to find their lebensraum elsewhere.

Be careful playing with terms like "Lebensraum".

Re: Going Dutch

#17

Post by davidw »

delano wrote: post #15
davidw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding them here doesn't mean avoiding them entirely.

Where best to have them then?

That's yours to figure out. The internet is full of places for people to talk about politics and economics, and has a relative paucity of places with good conversations about hacking and startups.

Re: Going Dutch

#18

Post by cousin_it »

sfk wrote: post #9
miked wrote: post #2

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-... The NYT article doesn't make any mention of the fact that emigration from the Netherlands in 2004 was the highest since 1954. This makes me wonder if things are really as wonderful there as the article claims, although it does a pretty good job of pointing out the pros and cons.

"Dissident voices are ruled out of order and successfully demonized (Pim Fortuyn), killed (Theo van Gogh) or face such severe threats to their security that they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages." The author con…

No, the author doesn't conflate anything. Yes, the people mentioned differ in many ways: gender, political views, popular image... But they do have something in common: they vocally attacked Islamic practices and were punished.

Re: Going Dutch

#19

Post by jonas_b »

eru wrote: post #16
jonas_b wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it was true, would that in the case of NL indicate anything in regards to its taxes-welfare state? I thought it was a widely held "fact" that the NL is overcrowded and that dutchmen should try to find their lebensraum elsewhere.

Be careful playing with terms like "Lebensraum".

You're right, it was probably unnecessary.

It's a pity though, cause the metaphorical meaning of living "room" is precisely what I meant.

Re: Going Dutch

#20

Post by ijnbhuy »

Ironically The Netherlands was meant to be the model for the USA, with all power local to the states and a stadhouder in Washington to manage things. Somehow the English model of land holding lords and a king in his white castle won out.
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