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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#111

> we all bought into the dream.. The American dream didn't even work out for most US citizens. Merely the upper class. The rest of the world bought into practical consumerism more than into a diffuse dream.

Is the european model better? I will trade my european passport for the US one anytime. But, sure, I also feel there is two kind of people, and if you are not an US citizen, you are screwed.

Try scandinavian countries.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know from experience that Americans in fact, don't know their geography. Many couldn't find where they lived if you pointed it to them on a map. I had a neighbor who thought Amsterdam was a city next to Athens, Georgia (US State) and even after explaining where it was, that it was part of Holland, he asked me how the Germany trip was when I returned. And yesterday, the Indian gas station owner was flabbergasted tha…

I know plenty of people in Europe that would have trouble locating major US cities on a map, but I wouldn't be so bigoted to say Europeans don't know geography.

I'm not expecting them to find the city on a map (aside from their own), but you'd be hard pressed to find a European that didn't know that New York or L.A. was located in the United States.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#113

> we all bought into the dream.. The American dream didn't even work out for most US citizens. Merely the upper class. The rest of the world bought into practical consumerism more than into a diffuse dream.

Is the european model better? I will trade my european passport for the US one anytime. But, sure, I also feel there is two kind of people, and if you are not an US citizen, you are screwed.

I would have to respectfully disagree on this one and at least say that this is highly subjective.

For me personally and based on my values I would be crazy to give up my EU passport for the US one when EU passport gives me right to live in countries like Finland or some other European countries that seem to be not only more free/democratic than the US but are also wealthier and have better health care, education, lower crime rate etc.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. Uh-huh. You've been watching those candid videos where they interview stupid Americans haven't you? Of course you probably realized that they are always filmed in heavily populated areas and there is always a cut between every interview. You know why? Because yo…

I know from experience that Americans in fact, don't know their geography. Many couldn't find where they lived if you pointed it to them on a map. I had a neighbor who thought Amsterdam was a city next to Athens, Georgia (US State) and even after explaining where it was, that it was part of Holland, he asked me how the Germany trip was when I returned. And yesterday, the Indian gas station owner was flabbergasted tha…

To be fair, the US has an internal geographic complexity that other places don't have, though admittedly it is still irksome that so many people support a war when they can't find the enemy on a map.

He actually asked 'how do you know that' and I wanted to say because I'm not a zombie. I occasionally get the similar question 'how do you know these things', and my response is, depending on context of course, 'how do you not know these things?'.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know from experience that Americans in fact, don't know their geography. Many couldn't find where they lived if you pointed it to them on a map. I had a neighbor who thought Amsterdam was a city next to Athens, Georgia (US State) and even after explaining where it was, that it was part of Holland, he asked me how the Germany trip was when I returned. And yesterday, the Indian gas station owner was flabbergasted tha…

Not sure I see how this is germane. Are you saying your geography is good, but your statistics are absolute shite?

I'm saying from general interactions with American neighbors, people on the street and my own family, they don't know geography. Mine's not great - pretty elementary compared to the rest of the world.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#116
post #84
post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

> This ideal is all but gone. Doesn't slavery demonstrate that this ideal never even existed in the first place?

I wish I had some authoritative references for this. Hopefully somebody else can write authoritatively or correct me. Based on my readings, slavery was always a problematic aspect of America.

Even the founders debated whether to abolish slavery, but ultimately punted because they felt uniting the states was more important.

That is, it was a tough compromise.

Take a look at the book The Long March (about Lincoln). There was a several-decade long movement before 1864 to abolish slavery.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#117
post #58
post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

Privacy? If only. We have no rights as human beings, let alone privacy. The worst part is that America claims to have rights over us, where ever we are. It is a disgusting abuse of humanity that American asserts that its laws apply to world citizens, while denying them even the few rights Americans think they have. Few countries stand up to the US, and if they dare, they get threatened. How vile is it to say to a cou…

> Its all "USA, USA, USA". (Which, BTW, sounds to many non Americans like "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil". We even see the the fist punching the air, which again looks a bit like a Nazi salute. If Americans reading this can change one single thing, please stop that. It a very scary thing to see. Or do average Americans know this already, and like it as much as the Germans did?)

I hardly ever hear the "USA" chant outside of sporting competitions that involve some type of US national team, and just about any country is prone to outbreaks of patriotic fervor in those situations: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/World_Cup...

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries would those be? I'm really on the fence at the moment, between becoming active in trying to change politics for the better, or just packing up and going somewhere that doesn't spy on literally everybody and throw you in jail over a stupid joke or rap song on facebook.

Well, it depends on your political preference. Strong social liberty or strong economic liberty or something in between? It depends on what's important to you. Economic Freedom: http://www.heritage.org/index/ Democracy Index: https://portoncv.gov.cv/dhub/porton.por_global.open_file?p_d... Human Development Index: http://hdr.undp.org/hdr4press/press/outreach/figures/HDI_Tre... Gun Freedom: http://www.freeexistence.org…

It's curious that you mention libertarianism in your first comment, but the leaders in most of those lists are the social democracies.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#119
post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

Not that this is much of a surprise. You'll have a hard time reconciling France's last 200 years with the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen it birthed

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#120
post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

In particular:

    ...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
In other words, I give MY government the power to arrest, prosecute, employ various armed agents to use against ME if I violate its laws. I've made no such tacit contract with France, or Russia or Singapore or China or anywhere else. Russians spying on me may be violating a treaty, but they've made no implicit social contract with me via a constitution or other set of laws.
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