Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us • Hacker News Board

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#101

Post by ajuc » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

jmadsen wrote: post #10

rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

Yes you are protected in civilized countries nobody can read your letters without your consent, no matter your citizenship. It's criminal offence if they do.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#102

Post by TimJRobinson » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

Derbasti wrote: post #59

The sad thing is, we don't have international law for these things. Thus, it is usually easier to ask a foreign intelligence agency if they could spy on a domestic suspect than to deal with it within the country. And this hurts so much, because the internet is perceived to not be bound by countries and borders, while still residing mostly on US soil. But the rules for spying are most certainly governed by borders; Th…

Some kind of peer to peer encrypted data storage system (think bitcoin for data) would go a long way towards solving this. You could give sub keys to sites that want to access some of this data and because it's encrypted, distributed and peer to peer no one owns it and you control your data.

Yes this would be crazy with todays infrastructure but in 10 - 20 years when internet is as previlent as electricity and everyone has many terabytes of space it's definitely viable.

I really hope some smart minds are working on something like this in light of these revelations.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#103

Post by coldcode » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 1:59 PM UTC

UVB-76 wrote: post #39

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life. This is only…

We in the US are going to pay for this in the long run big time. Sadly most of us seem to not care.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#104

Post by dasil003 » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:03 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #92

dasil003 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. Uh-huh. You've been watching those candid videos where they interview stupid Americans haven't you? Of course you probably realized that they are always filmed in heavily populated areas and there is always a cut between every interview. You know why? Because yo…

I know from experience that Americans in fact, don't know their geography. Many couldn't find where they lived if you pointed it to them on a map. I had a neighbor who thought Amsterdam was a city next to Athens, Georgia (US State) and even after explaining where it was, that it was part of Holland, he asked me how the Germany trip was when I returned. And yesterday, the Indian gas station owner was flabbergasted tha…

Not sure I see how this is germane. Are you saying your geography is good, but your statistics are absolute shite?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#105

Post by throwit1979 » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

throwit1979 wrote: post #96

This is going to be a little inflammatory but it's true. Why I will never take seriously foreigners' reactions to our wars, surveillance, human rights violations, etc: You people, and the governments and central banks who represent you, keep buying our debt and financing all of this. The US Government would be incapable of funding these programs and wars at low cost without YOU stepping up to the plate every single a…

Either I'm wrong, or reality is unpopular on HN. It doesn't take much to google for the TIC data[1]. You really do finance this stuff. Average net purchases represent nearly 30% of the US Government's budget. The USG would have to curtail its programs by about this much if you didn't consistently buy our toilet paper.

[1] http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/ti...

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#106

Post by vixen99 » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

disbelief wrote: post #82

mahmud wrote: post #64

Ugh! I cringed reading that. We wear blue jeans, drink Coke & eat McDonalds. We favor American companies (hands down) when we make purchases Well, thanks, but as an American I'd rather if people didn't have this subservient attachment to the U.S.

Yeah, the article could have done without that part and still stood upon its core argument. I think the author intended to start out with a little flattery to soften the blow, but it just comes across as patronizing and/or a bit outdated.

Neither flattering nor patronizing, I can see, merely a description of what the author saw. However a bit of condescension might well be in order from some quarters.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#107

Post by jrokisky » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #58

rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

Privacy? If only. We have no rights as human beings, let alone privacy. The worst part is that America claims to have rights over us, where ever we are. It is a disgusting abuse of humanity that American asserts that its laws apply to world citizens, while denying them even the few rights Americans think they have. Few countries stand up to the US, and if they dare, they get threatened. How vile is it to say to a cou…

I agree with you that many of the things that America has done are gross and contradict "American ideals", but I think you're underselling the power and influence of European nations. Why are they so easily bending to the will of such a belligerent turd?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#108

Post by popee » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:11 PM UTC

harryf wrote: post #70

tehwalrus wrote: post #61

The way the US talks about non-citizens has convinced me more and more of my (rather controversial) opinion that in order to have rule of law, we need one legal system for the whole world. I am skeptical of the idea of a world government, of course - it would have too much power, but I do think that governments need to be put on trial as frequently as citizens, in an international court system. I've blogged about thi…

A legal system as only as good as those who control it. One way to define what the law is, is that it's the will of the strong imposed upon the weak. In the Middle Ages for example the "strong" were barons who imposed laws upon the peasants through their men-at-arms. Today we have various competing legal systems fighting either for global control or defending their local "sovereignty". When we reach the point of one…

> A legal system as only as good ad those who control it.

Bingo!

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#109

Post by kenbellows » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:12 PM UTC

Just to put it out there, while I agree that the sheer volume of snooping being performed by the NSA, why is it a surprise to anyone, anywhere, that any government is snooping on as much foreign traffic as they can? This is, and has pretty much always been, standard operating procedure for every major intelligence agency in the world.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#110

Post by lttlrck » Sat, Jun 29, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #92

dasil003 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. Uh-huh. You've been watching those candid videos where they interview stupid Americans haven't you? Of course you probably realized that they are always filmed in heavily populated areas and there is always a cut between every interview. You know why? Because yo…

I know from experience that Americans in fact, don't know their geography. Many couldn't find where they lived if you pointed it to them on a map. I had a neighbor who thought Amsterdam was a city next to Athens, Georgia (US State) and even after explaining where it was, that it was part of Holland, he asked me how the Germany trip was when I returned. And yesterday, the Indian gas station owner was flabbergasted tha…

I know plenty of people in Europe that would have trouble locating major US cities on a map, but I wouldn't be so bigoted to say Europeans don't know geography.