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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#81

Post by Joeri »

obviouslygreen wrote: post #50

This outrage at American reactions is terribly hypocritical. Yes, people -- regardless of nationality -- should be upset when they realize their privacy is being grossly violated without cause, by any government. However, people seem to think Americans should be more concerned about other people's rights than their own, when the real problem is the violation of everyone's rights. Despite this, all anyone is really in…

This is the heart of the matter: the nation state is an unfit instrument in a globalized economy. We need to move towards a one-nation planet with equal protection under the law for all human beings, as well as equal obligations.

I'm just not sure how the voting system should work, because current voting systems mostly produce poor results.

I am reminded of Childhood's End where humanity is forced to grow up under alien guidance. Somehow we need to figure out a way to grow up as a species in a similar way.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#82

Post by disbelief »

mahmud wrote: post #64

Ugh! I cringed reading that. We wear blue jeans, drink Coke & eat McDonalds. We favor American companies (hands down) when we make purchases Well, thanks, but as an American I'd rather if people didn't have this subservient attachment to the U.S.

Yeah, the article could have done without that part and still stood upon its core argument. I think the author intended to start out with a little flattery to soften the blow, but it just comes across as patronizing and/or a bit outdated.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#83

Post by jopt »

disbelief wrote: post #82
mahmud wrote: post #64

Ugh! I cringed reading that. We wear blue jeans, drink Coke & eat McDonalds. We favor American companies (hands down) when we make purchases Well, thanks, but as an American I'd rather if people didn't have this subservient attachment to the U.S.

Yeah, the article could have done without that part and still stood upon its core argument. I think the author intended to start out with a little flattery to soften the blow, but it just comes across as patronizing and/or a bit outdated.

My sentiment exactly. I cringed at the thought of an argument based entirely on that. The last part, however

> George Bush famously proclaimed: “You’re either with us, or against us”. He asked foreigners the world over to choose. The wholesale spying on “foreigners” says how we chose made little difference at all..

redeemed the views to me.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#84

Post by tome »

nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

> This ideal is all but gone.

Doesn't slavery demonstrate that this ideal never even existed in the first place?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#85

Post by [deleted] »

obviouslygreen wrote: post #50

This outrage at American reactions is terribly hypocritical. Yes, people -- regardless of nationality -- should be upset when they realize their privacy is being grossly violated without cause, by any government. However, people seem to think Americans should be more concerned about other people's rights than their own, when the real problem is the violation of everyone's rights. Despite this, all anyone is really in…

[deleted]

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#86

Post by emiliobumachar »

Joeri wrote: post #81
obviouslygreen wrote: post #50

This outrage at American reactions is terribly hypocritical. Yes, people -- regardless of nationality -- should be upset when they realize their privacy is being grossly violated without cause, by any government. However, people seem to think Americans should be more concerned about other people's rights than their own, when the real problem is the violation of everyone's rights. Despite this, all anyone is really in…

This is the heart of the matter: the nation state is an unfit instrument in a globalized economy. We need to move towards a one-nation planet with equal protection under the law for all human beings, as well as equal obligations. I'm just not sure how the voting system should work, because current voting systems mostly produce poor results. I am reminded of Childhood's End where humanity is forced to grow up under al…

Your utopia would have a single point of failure. What if the one government gets corrupted? We could not even draw comparisons.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#87

Post by mosselman »

Why so black and white? US vs the rest? I don't care about what government says or does something, I care about what people do to each other, because in the end we are all people. It is not ok for a group of people to take it upon themselves to hurts everybody's privacy like has been done now. We'd have to stop whoever is doing this.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#88

Post by cpursley »

I'd argue that there are several countries that are more free than the United States in both terms of social issues and economics that make better role models.

This might all be 'news' to the tech community - but Libertarian circles have been talking about this trend towards totalitarianism since what, the 70s? It might feel like it all started after 9/11, but this framework has been building up for decades. In fact, it's the natural trajectory to unopposed empire.

The only thing I hope is that foreign nations accept us liberty loving Americans into their arms when the expatriation wave begins and are able to distinguish us from the assholes. It's coming - just look at the uptick in expatriation: www.nestmann.com/expatriation-statistics There's even publications dedicated to this like www.sovereignman.com and www.escapefromamerica.com/about

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#89

Post by mosselman »

7952 wrote: post #62
nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

The constitution was written for a world that lacked instant communication and had clearly defined jurisdictions that could be drawn on a map. It is time to extend the bill or rights to everyone.

Welcome to the world outside of the US, there is such a thing as 'human rights' already you know. You can keep your bill of 'rights' where it is, thanks.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#90

Post by jcromartie »

cpursley wrote: post #88

I'd argue that there are several countries that are more free than the United States in both terms of social issues and economics that make better role models. This might all be 'news' to the tech community - but Libertarian circles have been talking about this trend towards totalitarianism since what, the 70s? It might feel like it all started after 9/11, but this framework has been building up for decades. In fact,…

Which countries would those be? I'm really on the fence at the moment, between becoming active in trying to change politics for the better, or just packing up and going somewhere that doesn't spy on literally everybody and throw you in jail over a stupid joke or rap song on facebook.
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