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Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

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Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#121

Post by rmc »

flyinRyan wrote: post #117
rmc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for This is a common meme in British politics/public. The idea that "this isn't what we agreed". But I haven't actually seen any evidence for that. It seems like backwards justification of the right wing british politics to explain why the Tories brought the UK into then EEC and to explain why the British pu…

It's pretty much the poor countries that want to join. The rich countries like Switzerland are out and want to stay out.

Yes and no. Yes, Switzerland (and Norway) are not in the EU and don't want to offically join. However they have special trade deals with the EU, customs union, they have to implement EU law, they have to allow free movement of EU citizens to live and work there, they are in the Council of Europe and have to abide by the European Court of Human Rights, they're in Schengen. Switzerland and Norway are basically in EU in everything but name.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#122

Post by rmc »

louthy wrote: post #80
sentenza wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty. I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible. From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation…

The problem is we're an ex-Imperialist island nation. That breeds a certain psyche of superiority and xenophobia that I think is very hard for us to shake off en-masse. I think there's a sense with the British that we brought 'civilisation' to a huge portion of the world, why do we need anybody else telling us what to do? Even as children we're constantly fed war movies about the plucky Brits fighting against the evi…

It's funny hearing the UK people complain about the "democratic deficit" in the EU. The UK voting system (of First Past the Post, single member constituencies and a party whip) is quite weird and appears undemocratic. I'm in Ireland with a party whip system, but Proportional Represetation and multiseat consultancies, so not being able to vote 1,2,3,… appears undemocratic to me.

"Unelected buerocrats"? You mean like the House of Lords which allows someone who wasn't elected to be a cabinet minister? (Lord Mandelson, Baroness Warsi, etc.)

"Haemorrhaging money"? Remember the UK MP expenses?

So ask yourself, is the UK Parliament more or less democratic than the EU?

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#123

Post by rmc »

ollysb wrote: post #84
louthy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is we're an ex-Imperialist island nation. That breeds a certain psyche of superiority and xenophobia that I think is very hard for us to shake off en-masse. I think there's a sense with the British that we brought 'civilisation' to a huge portion of the world, why do we need anybody else telling us what to do? Even as children we're constantly fed war movies about the plucky Brits fighting against the evi…

> we have a moat I think this is a large part of why GB has a different relationship with Europe. In other European countries you can just jump in a car and drive almost anywhere else in Europe. For many people they can be in a couple of different countries in under an hour. Compare this to Gavin to book a flight or a ferry crossing, with the time and cost involved, and it's not too surprising that we're not as neigh…

Ireland, which is also an island, and even more cut off from the Continent, is less europhobic than UK.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#124

Post by rmc »

drucken wrote: post #70
sentenza wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty. I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible. From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation…

" The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible? " This is the correct interpretation, at least as far as public polls over EU prove time and again in the UK. If you actually combine the different responses to EU surveys, almost everyon…

"the most respected or even revered UK political leaders of the last 50 years ... Thatcher"

Maybe in some quarters/communities. Definitely not revered or respected in some parts of the UK.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#126

Post by louthy »

rmc wrote: post #122
louthy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is we're an ex-Imperialist island nation. That breeds a certain psyche of superiority and xenophobia that I think is very hard for us to shake off en-masse. I think there's a sense with the British that we brought 'civilisation' to a huge portion of the world, why do we need anybody else telling us what to do? Even as children we're constantly fed war movies about the plucky Brits fighting against the evi…

It's funny hearing the UK people complain about the "democratic deficit" in the EU. The UK voting system (of First Past the Post, single member constituencies and a party whip) is quite weird and appears undemocratic. I'm in Ireland with a party whip system, but Proportional Represetation and multiseat consultancies, so not being able to vote 1,2,3,… appears undemocratic to me. "Unelected buerocrats"? You mean like t…

Oh I totally agree with you. However I can vote for my MP, and I know who it is. I don't think anybody in the UK has any idea who represents them in Europe.

The problem with concentrating power is that you have fewer representatives representing more people, which breaks democracy outright. We should be looking to localise power where we can, give people responsibility and a say in their lot.

Europe should be a framework and an enabler, not a system for centralising as much power as possible. Do we really want a federal Europe? Absolute power corrupts.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#127

Post by louthy »

rmc wrote: post #123
ollysb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a moat I think this is a large part of why GB has a different relationship with Europe. In other European countries you can just jump in a car and drive almost anywhere else in Europe. For many people they can be in a couple of different countries in under an hour. Compare this to Gavin to book a flight or a ferry crossing, with the time and cost involved, and it's not too surprising that we're not as neigh…

Ireland, which is also an island, and even more cut off from the Continent, is less europhobic than UK.

Why do you think that is? I would have thought it's primarily because of the economic benefits that Ireland got after joining?

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#128

Post by 14113 »

rmc wrote: post #122
louthy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is we're an ex-Imperialist island nation. That breeds a certain psyche of superiority and xenophobia that I think is very hard for us to shake off en-masse. I think there's a sense with the British that we brought 'civilisation' to a huge portion of the world, why do we need anybody else telling us what to do? Even as children we're constantly fed war movies about the plucky Brits fighting against the evi…

It's funny hearing the UK people complain about the "democratic deficit" in the EU. The UK voting system (of First Past the Post, single member constituencies and a party whip) is quite weird and appears undemocratic. I'm in Ireland with a party whip system, but Proportional Represetation and multiseat consultancies, so not being able to vote 1,2,3,… appears undemocratic to me. "Unelected buerocrats"? You mean like t…

Ah, but all of those are traditional! /s

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#129

Post by rmc »

louthy wrote: post #127
rmc wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland, which is also an island, and even more cut off from the Continent, is less europhobic than UK.

Why do you think that is? I would have thought it's primarily because of the economic benefits that Ireland got after joining?

That's one aspect. There are lots of new motorways in Ireland (and many poor EU states) which are mostly financied by the EU. Ireland as a small country can't generate a big local market, free trade with the rest of Europe is good. Many liberal people support it because it's forced through a lot of liberal law changes. And, we're either align ourselves economically with Britain or Europe. Nothing like a bit of anti-British sentiment.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#130

Post by ytodo »

lispm wrote: post #105
kephra wrote: post #56

Clarification: Merkel said "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland", not “the Internet is new to all of us.”. Now Neuland does not just mean "new", but "new land". Similar as America or Africa was new land after 1500. So it means, the internet is ripe to conquer it. Merkel herself was a former Stasi member, known as IM-Erika (Informal Member Erika). Germany is currently tapping more phones, then DDR ever had. We do no…

What you write is misleading. Merkel was not a Stasi member and she was not known as 'IM Erika'. There are some rumors, but that's it mostly. The law 'Vorratsdatenspeicherung' is ruled unconstitutional by the 'Verfassungsgericht'. That the Internet is 'Neuland' is trivially true. I have been using the Internet since the mid 80s. But what we currently have is completely different, of a different quality and unpreceden…

http://www.imagebanana.com/view/r8cwnbcl/satire_01_april_201...

plz call it conspiracy, but mr.gauck was the one holding his thunbs on their secret files,...

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