Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

mcclatchydc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 134 posts

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#111

Post by rmc »

louthy wrote: post #53
sentenza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for

This is a common meme in British politics/public. The idea that "this isn't what we agreed". But I haven't actually seen any evidence for that.

It seems like backwards justification of the right wing british politics to explain why the Tories brought the UK into then EEC and to explain why the British public voted to stay in a few years later, and also to explain why many other countries (a) want to stay in it and (b) want to join.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#112

Post by gorbachev »

ihsw wrote: post #18

It's interesting that the only defense the USG can muster in this debacle is their insistence that there are policies in place to prevent abuse. Policies change when governments change, so every time there are US senate elections[1] or US presidential elections[2] then it'll be a chance that we irrevocably move further down the dark road of totalitarianism. If there's anything to do to remedy this situation, it's tal…

The "we have policies" defense is complete horse manure for the reason you stated and also because if those policies are secret, as is the case with regards to wholesale surveillance state policies, there is no way to verify they're being followed or hold anyone accountable for violating those policies.

Additionally even when governments don't change the policies have an uncanny habit of not being followed whenever it's convenient to ignore them. That has happened time and time again.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#113

Post by gorbachev »

oceanstone wrote: post #8

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

Encrypting your emails won't help at all, because what's being snooped is the header information. Who sent to whom, when and from where and where to.

You can't hide that information.

Don't send email and don't use the phone is the only alternative. Snail mail may be safe.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#114

Post by walshemj »

raphman wrote: post #89
walshemj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its always struck me as odd that Germans seem to be so hot on privacy but seem fine with having mandatory ID cards and with the police being able to demand you show it.

One might argue that ID cards actually preserve privacy. In order to give some company or person proof of my identity, I just have to show them my ID card. This transfers less personal information to them than a driver's license, birth certificate, etc. State-issued ID cards are usually much harder to falsify than those, too. Therfore, rarely something else beside them is needed for identification. Therefore, identit…

So there should be no problems with the NSA GCHQ storing all that data then by your argument.

Are there any oversight committees that check that the police of European country aren't abusing the power to demand ID I Think Not.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#115

Post by epscylonb »

artumi-richard wrote: post #102
lispm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ... The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us. Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain say…

I would go so far as to say that no politician in Britain puts forward the case for Europe in these terms. Any pro European argues that it is in our economic interest, and mentions no other advantage. The reason for this is, they could not sell the idea that the European project is decreasing the chances of European war. Indeed, lately, as the popularity of the European project has been diminishing across Europe it l…

I'm British and mildly pro European, I think for all the stuff that gets written about the EU, for the jokes the countries tell about each other, we have many more things that unite us than divide.

What I can't argue with though, is that there is definitely a perceived democratic deficit in the EU. I won't argue about whether it is real or not, it doesn't matter, what does is a lot of Europeans (not just the British) don't like EU bureaucracy.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#116

Post by flyinRyan »

arrrg wrote: post #94
blumentopf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

Separation of power and democracy at work. This is why, at least within the context of the EU, you cannot say “Germany did this” or “Germany is in favour of that“. When it comes to data retention German politicians don’t have a uniform view. You can’t even say that they are clearly opposed. Most probably want some kind of data retention (but it’s a complex issue that is passionately fought, so this is taking time). O…

Well it looks like the EU is dead wrong in this case and wants to force Germany to spy on its own citizens.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#117

Post by flyinRyan »

rmc wrote: post #111
louthy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for This is a common meme in British politics/public. The idea that "this isn't what we agreed". But I haven't actually seen any evidence for that. It seems like backwards justification of the right wing british politics to explain why the Tories brought the UK into then EEC and to explain why the British pu…

It's pretty much the poor countries that want to join. The rich countries like Switzerland are out and want to stay out.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#118

Post by flyinRyan »

artumi-richard wrote: post #102
lispm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ... The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us. Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain say…

I would go so far as to say that no politician in Britain puts forward the case for Europe in these terms. Any pro European argues that it is in our economic interest, and mentions no other advantage. The reason for this is, they could not sell the idea that the European project is decreasing the chances of European war. Indeed, lately, as the popularity of the European project has been diminishing across Europe it l…

Wow, this would be worth a Tory vote!

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#119

Post by a3n »

gorbachev wrote: post #113
oceanstone wrote: post #8

Assuming this level of unconstitutional surveillance continues, what can we do? Here are some of my ideas: Send encrypted emails, to communicate long distances. Use the internet way less. Use cell phones only to arrange real life meetups. Hang out & talk to people in real life. Never have a meaningful discussion "over the air".

Encrypting your emails won't help at all, because what's being snooped is the header information. Who sent to whom, when and from where and where to. You can't hide that information. Don't send email and don't use the phone is the only alternative. Snail mail may be safe.

I assume snail mail metadata (from, to, date, weight, form factor) can and is collected, with modern USPS equipment.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#120

Post by flyinRyan »

blumentopf wrote: post #44
kamjam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

The situation isn't really better in Germany. The Constitutional Court (and current Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger) is our last, best and only line of defense against the security hardliners in the conservative party (CDU/CSU). Since the ruling of the Constitutional Court, whenever there was some crime, there'd be the predictable knee-jerk reaction by Hans-Peter Uhl (CSU) that it wouldn't have ha…

Good lord, could this actually happen?
Post reply on HN