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Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

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Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#101

Post by gregsq »

lispm wrote: post #64
louthy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ... The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us. Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain say…

Interesting. It has to be remembered that the UK and in fact all the allies, with the partial exception of the Soviet Union, were applying their war efforts to avert precisely this aggregation of nations during the Second World War. That war broke the back of the UK's economy, and the Marshall plan and the post war support of Germany was always intended to be a reintegration of the largest nation in continental Europe into an Anglo Saxon idea of a global economy. It was to avoid a repeat of the decimation of Germany after the First World War, which provided so much impetus to the events leading to the second.

Far from being a mis sold notion to the British public, it was in fact a preferred popular view. The acquiescence of Chamberlain to notions of compromise were well remembered, and the effort and loss of treasure to overcome that mistake gave rise to caution and defensiveness.

Viewed from the German and French perspectives, it appears very differently. But England has a very long history in needing to attend to other nations ideas of supra nationalism as it relates to the British Isles, and its own inclinations to state power inform its decisions as well.

While not my view, to many 'middle englanders', the Franco German alliance is a continuance of historical european politics. The French compromise, with some resistance, and the Germans see Europe as a larger political entity, having the characteristic of land locked imperialists. Even recent diplomats have expressed this view.

The decision to limit the European project to a trading agreement was in the first instance all that could be politically managed in the UK.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#102

Post by artumi-richard »

lispm wrote: post #64
louthy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.…

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ... The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us. Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain say…

I would go so far as to say that no politician in Britain puts forward the case for Europe in these terms. Any pro European argues that it is in our economic interest, and mentions no other advantage. The reason for this is, they could not sell the idea that the European project is decreasing the chances of European war. Indeed, lately, as the popularity of the European project has been diminishing across Europe it looks increasingly as though the main beneficiary of the European project is Germany. Due to the Mediterranean countries keeping the Euro exchange rate low, Germany has benefited from selling it's cheap exports, for years and years. Now that the wheels have fallen off Greece and Spain and Ireland and Portugal those populations look to Germany with envy.

There is a British view, which I am unconvinced of, that the single currency, being done for political rather than economic reasons, has caused, and will continue to cause international European tension.

In short, Britain is not convinced of the economic case, it is not convinced of the moral case, it is not convinced of any benefit whatsoever.

If the Tories win power at the next election outright, which is possible, they have promised an in/out referendum on Europe. If that referendum takes place it is perfectly clear how Britain will vote, they will vote Out.

Then we will be living in interesting times.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#104

Post by lispm »

artumi-richard wrote: post #102
lispm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we signed up exactly for that. A Europe with peace and democracy, without borders, countries with political integration, large enough to be heard outside of Europe, ... The 'common market' was a tool to achieve that. We were also certain that France (and some other countries) also wanted that. Something which was/is very important for us. Not sure what Britain was and is thinking... but if Britain say…

I would go so far as to say that no politician in Britain puts forward the case for Europe in these terms. Any pro European argues that it is in our economic interest, and mentions no other advantage. The reason for this is, they could not sell the idea that the European project is decreasing the chances of European war. Indeed, lately, as the popularity of the European project has been diminishing across Europe it l…

The German view is that Britain manipulated the financial markets and they fell into their own traps. Instead of setting up a sound economy, Britain lived of North Sea oil, dubious financial 'services' and speculation. But they can't admit that, so they put the blame on somebody else.

Now Britain is desperately seeking for a vision. Is it the revived Commonwealth? Difficult. Though there could be improvements. Britain has a huge trade deficit with India. What else? Is it a form of self-isolation? Alternatively the US could be the best partner and Britain can have a free-trade agreement with the US.

In my view Britain takes itself much too important. From here in Berlin we have many more difficult problems. We just need to look a bit east. Poland is a country which enjoys some growth and it would be much more useful to help them getting into shape and getting them up to the level of Eestern Europe. Even East Germany needs a lot of attention.

As an European, I have to say the EU is a huge success. Much of what I read in the newspapers is bullshit anyway. How often has the British press written that the Euro is over in a few days, survival possibility of a few percent, Germany is already printing Deutsche Marks, and more. Fact is, the Euro is still there, looking stable and the Eurozone is committed to keep it.

Britain may get out of the EU. Scotland may even get out of Britain. The interesting times will be more interesting than some think.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#105

Post by lispm »

kephra wrote: post #56

Clarification: Merkel said "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland", not “the Internet is new to all of us.”. Now Neuland does not just mean "new", but "new land". Similar as America or Africa was new land after 1500. So it means, the internet is ripe to conquer it. Merkel herself was a former Stasi member, known as IM-Erika (Informal Member Erika). Germany is currently tapping more phones, then DDR ever had. We do no…

What you write is misleading.

Merkel was not a Stasi member and she was not known as 'IM Erika'. There are some rumors, but that's it mostly.

The law 'Vorratsdatenspeicherung' is ruled unconstitutional by the 'Verfassungsgericht'.

That the Internet is 'Neuland' is trivially true. I have been using the Internet since the mid 80s. But what we currently have is completely different, of a different quality and unprecedented.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#107

Post by sk00byd00 »

sentenza wrote: post #40
kamjam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation…

I think you are missing the scale of these data collection programmes. For instance, if you are in north Germany, some of your traffic will be routed through Sweden (because of Telia), Sweden has the FRA law[1] and the Titan Traffic Database[2] which means your traffic gets intercepted, stored and handed over to American authorities for analysis.

Why aren't you as angry about Sweden doing the same thing to your communications? It was not even a secret matter.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA-law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_traffic_database

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#108

Post by ollysb »

BrandonMarc wrote: post #99
ollysb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a moat I think this is a large part of why GB has a different relationship with Europe. In other European countries you can just jump in a car and drive almost anywhere else in Europe. For many people they can be in a couple of different countries in under an hour. Compare this to Gavin to book a flight or a ferry crossing, with the time and cost involved, and it's not too surprising that we're not as neigh…

Which blows my mind, since I live in Texas where you can drive 10 hours in the same direction on the same road at freeway speeds, and still be an hour or two from reaching another state.

For whatever reason people have a very different relationship with travelling in their own car and via some other form of transport. The perceived cost of a trip seems to drop for a lot of people, both with regards to price and time. Perhaps less so in the millennial generation but in the preceeding generation there is a very strong association between owning a car and personal freedom.

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#109

Post by rmc »

kamjam wrote: post #31
blumentopf wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data ret…

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

The majority of the British press often lies and misleads about EU law and how much of it the UK implements. The UK actually opts out of various EU things (Schengen, Euro, 48 hr max working week), and often implements the bare minimum of EU law (e.g. Working Time Directive).

This idea, that EU-law-in-UK is somehow worse than EU-law-in-France (or -Germany, etc.) is used an excuse to explain why other countries don't want to leave. "Why don't Spain want to leave the EU if it's so bad?" "Oh! Well they don't implement all the laws!!". Unfortunately it's not true. France goes above and beyond the EU minimum (and beyond UK) in many EU-laws (e.g. Working Time Directive).

Re: Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

#110

Post by rmc »

BrandonMarc wrote: post #99
ollysb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a moat I think this is a large part of why GB has a different relationship with Europe. In other European countries you can just jump in a car and drive almost anywhere else in Europe. For many people they can be in a couple of different countries in under an hour. Compare this to Gavin to book a flight or a ferry crossing, with the time and cost involved, and it's not too surprising that we're not as neigh…

Which blows my mind, since I live in Texas where you can drive 10 hours in the same direction on the same road at freeway speeds, and still be an hour or two from reaching another state.

In Europe 100 miles is a long distance, but in America 100 years is a long time.
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