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Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

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Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#31

Post by ihsw »

mqzaidi wrote: post #27
marshray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see one paragraph that might fit that description. The one that starts with > However, the reality is that you need engineering more than they need you. And it's basically true. But I thought the line > You are overhead. Was too harsh and a slam. If the author really feels that's a notable point to make, it deserves a lot more explanation.

There are 2 specialized positions (not roles) that I have been able to eliminate in a couple of successful projects (in a startup). These are Product Management and Quality Assurance. I think both the tasks are important enough to be entrusted to engineers, rather than getting someone else do it.

There are advantages to getting someone else to do some of your work half as good, for example they can offload work for many people at the same time. It's good for morale and concentration.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#32

Post by danso »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4
doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

I sympathize with the enormous friction between folks who assign work and folks who finish it. I don't. If you create this separation between the two categories, you'll have a terrible organization and when it caves in on itself, I will cheer that process on. That's why open allocation is morally superior (in addition to working better). People "assign" work to themselves (without noise) and then do it. None of this…

You know how much better the world would be if everyone was good at work? If everyone had a correct estimation of his/her own ability? If everyone knew when to defer to those with better judgement?

The world would be awesome. But that's not the way the world is. And not all well-oiled machines will stay well-oiled...and in such a situation, sometimes it may be worth it to have someone who manages the process and can play King Solomon anytime two workers are fighting over a baby.

I'm not sure if the PM role does this well in practice, I'm just saying, I can imagine such a role in an imperfect work environment paying off.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#33

Post by jasonlotito »

michaelochurch wrote: post #30
Whitespace wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Become female and learn how to sit on a desk. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.

I realized that it was horrible as written and I apologize. In that vein, I fixed it (replaced with "executive's gender of interest"). It was reverse-pattern-matched off of a certain company where the desk ornament happened to be female, but I've seen male desk ornament dynamics as well. That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. That's especially true in the…

> That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled.

Yeah, that's bullshit. Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up, I'm calling bullshit.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#34

Post by jmspring »

fredsanford wrote: post #28

You know... This brings a part of my life back to mind that I hoped to forget... FS, if you're reading and recognize this, I still respect the hell out of you and wish you well. I can't go into too much depth here without revealing more than allowed. I am purposely vague and I apologize if that bothers or offends you but I don't want to see any litigation in my future. I don't know how to take this article. I wish so…

A bad PM can be countered with good engineering management. That said, I've been at a place that had both. Weekends were planned into the schedule and they thought that was the norm. At a certain point, the brain drain was pretty serious (myself included). Not meeting deadlines isn't always an engineering issue it is a management and planning issue.

Another more recent example, boot strapped startup. General engineering goal with a high level of what pieces are needed. Most of those working on it are contractors not always onsight. Functionality decisions are made between a couple of parties, but not communicated down resulting in added effort. In this case, there isn't a lot of engineering pushback, but the PM should be aware of the need to communicate more directly, yet doesn't. When pressed for specs, a blank face. An example, for me, of a bad PM.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#35

Post by madkins1868 »

Oh great, another Product Manager/Project Manager/XYZ Manager has pissed off the software engineering masses post again. Another "we can live without you, but you can't live without us scribe...". Really? You mean I can't go find a top notch, $15/hr engineer to build in Kathmandu to build the product to my specs? Get a hold of yourself boys. You're not all that. I can (and have) built plenty of products with a wide assortment of engineering resources worldwide. If you're worth your salt, you recognized that it is the relationship between disciplines that matters - nt your "Engineers will Rule the World" mantra. Get over yourselves....

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#36

Post by ameister14 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4
doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

I sympathize with the enormous friction between folks who assign work and folks who finish it. I don't. If you create this separation between the two categories, you'll have a terrible organization and when it caves in on itself, I will cheer that process on. That's why open allocation is morally superior (in addition to working better). People "assign" work to themselves (without noise) and then do it. None of this…

Lots of people don't assign work to themselves, though, if given the opportunity. People shirk, they don't want to do this or that and if something is boring or hard and nobody is watching them they'll do something else.

Other people aren't very good at estimating what something will cost in terms of time or effort.

It's actually pretty rare to find people that assign themselves tasks and follow through on them. If you have an entire organization made up of people like that, awesome; it's the ideal, not the norm.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#37

Post by kabdib »

austenallred wrote: post #7

I hate articles like this more than anything. If you really want to help product managers, do you have to spend the first half of the article telling them that you're so much more important than them? It takes two hands to clap.

The best product managers I've worked with have been ex-engineers. I got technical specs that we could go back and forth on. Wonderful in-depth technical conversations.

The worst ones: I wrote the specs. Instead of talking about technical stuff, I have to explain why something like "getting cache coherency right" is going to cost three or four days, and that no, I can't go to another scheduling meeting right now, didn't we have one yesterday?

The best: Shields.

The worst: "Why isn't that bug fixed? I'm going to call a meeting about that bug at 4:00, and I want it fixed by 5:00" [seriously. this happened]

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#38

Post by five18pm »

Let me add couple more:

(1) Asking for a feature and then never showing up once when it is being built. "Hey, we are adding this page here. Is it okay?" . "Hey, is this workflow good?" . Once implemented, come around and ask "Why is this built this way?"

(2) Not being interested in any feature that engineering is interested in.

It is okay to talk to customers all the time, but once in a while turn around and talk to engineering too.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#39

Post by weixiyen »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #3

Eh—hoarding credit is sort of the M.O. of a really great product manager. A PM has to compete with all the other PMs to get her features implemented. And if the PM's feature gets implemented first, this PM looks super productive. I think if you're an product manager looking to be the best product manager, taking credit is imperative. Because at the end of the day, your feature is just paper until it is implemented. N…

It's difficult to respect anybody who publicly takes credit for the success of their team. People in leadership positions should always look to defer.

It's important to remember that you are only a leader if people choose to follow you.

Otherwise, you are just leveraging your position, and that's probably not a good long-term strategy, nor is it the right thing to do.

Credit means much more when it is given, not taken.

Re: Product Managers, Stop Pissing Off The Engineers

#40

Post by hkarthik »

vijayr wrote: post #18

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

It's a tough transition, but I've seen it done in a few ways:

1) Internally apply for a Product Management job. Expect to have put in at least 3 years within the company and make sure you know the business domain better than most other engineers. Play politics successfully and hop on the first open PM position available. You may have to pick a product in pretty bad shape as a proving ground.

2) Build your own product either on the side or quit your day job to focus on it. Make sure it's something a bigger company like Yahoo, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, etc would be interested in. Make a real go at building a business, and doing the hard PM work. Hire others to do the engineering work so you can focus on the PM skills. This may also take 5 years before you land your dream PM role. If you play your cards right, you may land in a PM role with a nice exit as well.

3) Go get an MBA from a top school that Google, Facebook, and Microsoft actively recruit from. Make sure your program has a focus area on Technical Product Management so you can get into the right recruiting circles. This may be a faster track, but expect to lose 2 years of income and rack up a lot of tuition debt to make it happen.

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