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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#141

Post by powertower »

kinghajj wrote: post #110
powertower wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story? Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA? Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see…

I'm referring to all of his leaks so far. > Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. > Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on. It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story,…

> Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong.

It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong.

> It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials.

What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehoods. But you've already made up your mind...

"Direct pipes" turned out to be nothing more than FTP accounts at google and facebook, were data has to be requested first, looked over by lawyers, and then moved to. And "unlimited wholescale spying" turned out to be extremely specific targeting of a few hundred phone accounts. Not to mention that US citizen targeting turned out to be completely against the rules.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#142

Post by lemmsjid »

Sven7 wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

Try doing an exercise that is incredibly useful for those talking about terrorism--remove the word "terror" from what you're saying and see if your question remains reasonable.

"And how do you plan to stop the next attack?"

Suddenly the supreme vagueness of the question becomes apparent. After all, attacks in general provoke terror (at least for me--some random guy can rush at me on the street and I'll feel terror). So what attack are you talking about? By whom? The U.S. already has a framework to prevent "attacks" in general-- the CIA, the military, the police, the NSA, etc. Like with all security systems, it's a matter of calibrating them so they don't undermine our way of life.

As a micro example -- I can prevent future (terror) attacks on myself by burying myself in a sealed metal casket. But my way of life would be seriously undermined. So how do I want to calibrate my safety vs. how I want to live?

The exercise of removing the word "terror" is useful in almost all situations, because it actually makes things a little more accurate. For example, the "War on Terror" becomes the "War on ...". Which, as it panned out, more accurately describes the outcome.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#143

Post by PavlovsCat »

refurb wrote: post #138
christkv wrote: post #95

reminds me off the Hermann Goering quote from the Nuremberg trial in 1947. "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the lea…

That's a bit simplistic, no? Sure, you might only come back to your farm in one piece, but what if the alternative to going to war is never coming back to your farm? What if it means leading a life that is far worse that what you currently have?

Yeah, what if indeed? Germany attacked Poland allegedly in self-defense, with exactly those arguments, can't wait for the mushroom cloud blah blah blah.

So are we talking about there actually being the need for self-defense, or about self-defense as pretext for self-destruction of the many for the gains of the few? The few existential threats the US faces seem mostly to be inside of it.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#145

Post by D9u »

Denying the right of "We the People" to know what is being done in OUR name is anathema to the ideal of "the consent of the governed."

Unfortunately there are many who believe that because of the ethnicity of the POTUS he can do no wrong. I spoke to a neighbor yesterday who is a staunch Obama supporter and he parroted the Cheney line completely. When I mentioned the Bill of Rights he justified the spying as a necessary evil.

If the 4th Amendment is to be abrogated then it should be amended to reflect the current state of affairs.

There goes that fabled "Moral High Ground," again...

If the government was really concerned with our safety alcohol would be outlawed. Compare the statistics regarding deaths attributed to "terrorism" and deaths attributed to alcohol.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#146

Post by dnautics »

graycat wrote: post #131

I suggest that, on the question prominent in this thread, "what should the US do about terrorism and the claimed excesses of the NSA", there is now an answer that is unavoidable, rock solid, quite clear, maybe crystal clear, even if it does not address all concerns. Here in logical steps is the unavoidable answer: (1) Due to whatever in history before 1776, the US founding fathers gave us the Constitution. Soon they…

This language ("aiding enemies of the US") is going to be specifically used to justify calling leakers "treasonous". The words are directly lifted from Article III of the constitution, part of which outlines what it means to commit treason.

There are certainly holes in the constitution, which over time politician and bureaucrats always find a way to "hack" their way into securing more powers for themselves, such as the commerce clause, the general welfare clause, or vague interpretations of the definition of "public", in the takings clause, that is used to justify eminent domain abuse...

Now, politicians and bureaucrats have seemed to have exploited a hole in the treason clause. Who gets to define what constitutes an "enemy" of the United States?

I think this is very, very dangerous.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#147

Post by hga »

powertower wrote: post #141
kinghajj wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to all of his leaks so far. > Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. > Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on. It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story,…

> Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong. > It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials. What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehood…

Actually, the most appalling thing could be that warrant to the business unit of Verizon for 3 months of ALL their phone call metadata, every single phone line. Now, if it's limited to business accounts that would imply something congruent with this topic, a focus on leakers. If it's matched by ones for residential lines, non-business mobile phones, etc. it's downright chilling, I don't care what's "completely against the rules", especially with an administration that doesn't care about the concept.

Look, even DNI Clapper has admitted he lied, in giving the "least untruthful" answer to the question of whether the "NSA collect[s] any type of data at all on millions of Americans". Which apparently hinges on a definition of collect where they Hoover up lots of stuff, and promise to only look at it if they're following their rules.

Now, if we think the downright wrong things aren't some combination of Snowden's limited understanding of things AND the filter of the reporter and his editors, we might wonder if that warrant wasn't fabricated or sexed up. I don't know off the top of my head how to proceed on judging its validity.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#148

Post by rdouble »

hga wrote: post #147
powertower wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong. > It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials. What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehood…

Actually, the most appalling thing could be that warrant to the business unit of Verizon for 3 months of ALL their phone call metadata, every single phone line. Now, if it's limited to business accounts that would imply something congruent with this topic, a focus on leakers. If it's matched by ones for residential lines, non-business mobile phones, etc. it's downright chilling, I don't care what's "completely agains…

Unfortunately, they need all that metadata to use as a training set if they hope to build "big data" tools that actually work.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#149

Post by hga »

rdouble wrote: post #148
hga wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the most appalling thing could be that warrant to the business unit of Verizon for 3 months of ALL their phone call metadata, every single phone line. Now, if it's limited to business accounts that would imply something congruent with this topic, a focus on leakers. If it's matched by ones for residential lines, non-business mobile phones, etc. it's downright chilling, I don't care what's "completely agains…

Unfortunately, they need all that metadata to use as a training set if they hope to build "big data" tools that actually work.

But wouldn't those Big Data tools then need to work on big data sets? Wouldn't that be the whole point of them?

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#150

Post by brown9-2 »

graycat wrote: post #131

I suggest that, on the question prominent in this thread, "what should the US do about terrorism and the claimed excesses of the NSA", there is now an answer that is unavoidable, rock solid, quite clear, maybe crystal clear, even if it does not address all concerns. Here in logical steps is the unavoidable answer: (1) Due to whatever in history before 1776, the US founding fathers gave us the Constitution. Soon they…

You seem to have great esteem for how the Supreme Court might rule on the 4th Amendment here, in light of how the court has narrowed the law in regards to the amendment in the past few decades.

In fact, they've already ruled that challengers to the 2011 FISA act have no grounding to sue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapper_v._Amnesty_Internationa...

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