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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#101

Post by kinghajj »

powertower wrote: post #91
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out, and some other will fill the vacuum instantly, while their people clap and cheer - death to the USA, my country #1. This idea that the USA should just leave everyone alone, and then the world will be a perfect place is so naive that it's absurd and self-destruc…

He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#102

Post by twoodfin »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #83
Sven7 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying lets have a lottery every year that picks 3000 people and send them over to the middle east. My point is people have to be pushed to answer the question on how to tackle terrorism to take this debate in a constructive direction. Ofcourse governments will do dumb things but the terrorism problem is a hard one.

The terrorism problem is a manufactured one. You want to fight terrorism? Fine, your budget is proportional to the budget we use to solve other types of murder based on the number of lives it costs us, and you can use the same methods. If you don't agree you'll have to distinguish terrorism from other types of murder in a defensible way, otherwise we should be treating them equally.

What is this obsession with body counts? To bang again on my favorite drum, many, may more Americans were dying of polio or coal mining accidents in 1941 than German or Japanese bombs. That doesn't mean it was stupid to enter World War II.

Obviously those who have chosen to deliberately kill civilians in spectacular ways are not right now a danger akin to imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. But will it really take a dirty bomb, a successful mass infection/poisoning, or god help us a nuke to stop this silly argument?

It's bizarre to me that one of the anti-anti-terror arguments of choice reflects that hilariously dystopian scene in the film Brazil, wherein the staff and patrons of a restaurant that has just been bombed attempt to paper over the incident by completely ignoring it, as innocent people suffer and die.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#103

Post by hga »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #96
hga wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's unrealistic, because we simply won't put up with mass casualty events. The key is to focus the response productively and avoid mission creep. It's the potential if not inevitability of the latter that makes the current NSA et. al. stuff so bad. This is different, this is a president who's cut from the same cloth as Nixon, in everything from being the first one since him to refer to his political enemies as "en…

>That's unrealistic, because we simply won't put up with mass casualty events. Honest question: Why not? Obviously we don't want mass casualties, but we don't want thousands of traditional murders or automobile fatalities or cancer deaths every year either, and we don't allocate insanely disproportionate budgets or construct a surveillance state to address any of those things. If anything we under-perform in addressi…

Well, my take on the American character is wildly different, then again I'm culturally a Southerner, we're always ready for a fight. (I mean, if you've missed "the call for a war on CO2 to reduce climate change induced mass casualties" we are definitely existing in different universes, then again We've always been at war with Eastasia, I remember when it was SO2 we had to fight since it was obviously causing an ice age.)

But, geeze, this united the nation for a very brief period, I mean, when the ruling class in their national cathedral sings The Battle Hymn of the Republic 3 days after 9/11 it does mean something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic...).

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#104

Post by twoodfin »

ObviousPoints wrote: post #93
Sven7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

> The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto. Not doing what the NSA is currently up to, and letting a 9/11 happen every year, would be better than what we're currently doing. "Preventing all terrorism" is both impossible and wildly impractical: to even get close, you must eviscerate the freedoms in your society and undermine the rule of law. Th…

Not doing what the NSA is currently up to, and letting a 9/11 happen every year, would be better than what we're currently doing.

In a democracy, you have to at least try to get people to agree with you, and given what we know about the NSA program, you're nuts if you think any politician who proposed the tradeoff you're making would get 15% of the vote.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#105

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

greenyoda wrote: post #86
grey-area wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a free society, you can't guarantee that you will stop terror attacks. They do cause damage and mayhem, however that is strictly localised unless the government overreacts and introduces draconian measures in a mistaken attempt to find terrorists under every rock. The UK survived decades of terrorism (sponsored by some US politicians like Rep. Peter King, now so ferocious against terrorists) without relying on mas…

"In a free society, you can't guarantee that you will stop terror attacks." Even a repressive government can't guarantee that it will stop terror attacks.

A repressive government wouldn't stop things which can be used to justify the need for repression.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#106

Post by 3amOpsGuy »

Sven7 wrote: post #58
mpyne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normal recommendation is "good old-fashioned police work", as if strong police states are known to be beacons of freedom. Some simply recommend to just suck it up as the price of doing business, but that goes against everything America has typically done with regard to terrorism, all the way back to the Barbary Pirates: "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!"

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

You've asked some tough questions which are really against the grain here. You've been respectful, direct to the point and articulate.

Just felt a simple up vote didn't convey enough of a thanks. You've provoked the conversation in far more interesting directions than it would otherwise have taken. Thank you sven7.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#107

Post by powertower »

kinghajj wrote: post #101
powertower wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out, and some other will fill the vacuum instantly, while their people clap and cheer - death to the USA, my country #1. This idea that the USA should just leave everyone alone, and then the world will be a perfect place is so naive that it's absurd and self-destruc…

He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).

Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story?

Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play.

Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA?

Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see (in effect), he and his "journalists" sensationalized it to the point of it being a falsehood...

Read the response of the government, the number of FISA requests involved, how they are handled, the limited number of phone taps done, how this does not aplly to US citizens at all, and what the involved companies are saying. Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on (no "direct pipes")...

http://allthingsd.com/20130618/google-formally-petitions-to-...

> Google's reputation and business has been harmed by the false or misleading reports in the media, and Google's users are concerned by the allegations.

Or just keep ignoring the facts, and pretend you know better because the government must be evil and you live is a Nazi Germany like state.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#108

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

powertower wrote: post #91
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out, and some other will fill the vacuum instantly, while their people clap and cheer - death to the USA, my country #1. This idea that the USA should just leave everyone alone, and then the world will be a perfect place is so naive that it's absurd and self-destruc…

Use everyone else's oil first, right?

>treason

Nope. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=treason

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#109

Post by [deleted] »

powertower wrote: post #107
kinghajj wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).

Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story? Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA? Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see…

[deleted]

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#110

Post by kinghajj »

powertower wrote: post #107
kinghajj wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).

Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story? Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA? Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see…

I'm referring to all of his leaks so far.

> Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play.

Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong.

> Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on.

It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials.

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