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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#71

Post by Sven7 »

lukeschlather wrote: post #67
Sven7 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

I don't. We could have a 9/11 type event every year, and it would still not be as big a problem as automobile accidents. If we're going to live in a police state, I would hope the police state would focus on major causes of preventable death, like disease and automobile accidents. Terrorism in the United States is not a serious problem worthy of this level of concern.

This is like saying lets have a lottery every year that picks 3000 people and send them over to the middle east.

My point is people have to be pushed to answer the question on how to tackle terrorism to take this debate in a constructive direction. Ofcourse governments will do dumb things but the terrorism problem is a hard one.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#72

Post by hga »

mpyne wrote: post #56
hga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clinton is the same guy who tried to press us into using key-escrowed encryption systems like the Clipper Chip ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip ) and his IRS was notorious for auditing anyone who committed personal, in your face lèse-majesté . You mention his wife, she of the "vast, right wing conspiracy"; these are not people who've ever been good on these subjects. For that matter, not that it wasn't lar…

You may not like Clinton but tons of people do . Ignore that at the peril of the political goals you try to advance. But either way, the point is that Clinton's opinion is going to be a decent bellwether as to the general opinion. I think spitx is right on target on how to advance change (or at least, what to avoid).

Sure, "tons of people do", they're by definition part of the problem, since they explicitly or implicitly support these types of thuggishness, as long as it's directed at their enemies.

We on the other side mostly want to be left alone. Their side isn't willing to do that, which is why we're sliding towards a hot civil war.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#73

Post by johnrob »

Sven7 wrote: post #62
PavlovsCat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By stopping to commit them. Oh wait, that's not what you meant, you meant terror attacks by Americans or foreigners against American officials, not terror attacks against foreigners by American officials, or terror attacks by american officals against American civilians, right? My bad. For that I would hop into a time machine, not train Al-Quaeda, not mess with Iran, and let Saudi Arabia find someone else to buy thei…

Solutions please. Rhetoric is easy.

You've unjustifiably framed the problem as preventing terrorist attacks. There's no evidence indicating that is our biggest problem.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#74

Post by smsm42 »

Sven7 wrote: post #66
smsm42 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this comment is missing "think of the children". Practically any government excess can be justified once it is claimed it is to combat terrorism or protect children.

And this comment doesn't answer my question.

Oh, the answer to you question is simple - you can't. We just had a terror attack in US not so long ago. And there probably would be others, unfortunately, though nobody could predict where and when. If somebody promises you he'll stop all terror attacks - he's lying. If somebody claims he can give you safety only if you surrender your freedom - he is lying and he's trying to enslave you, using your fear against you.

I am completely convinced, however, that US government, with all its enormous might, is perfectly capable of ensuring reasonable - not complete, as it is impossible, but reasonable - level of safety to US citizens without turning into a police state and shredding the Constitution. Yes, it will be harder and some important people would be forced to work a lot harder than otherwise and spend more money and stay longer hours, and be frustrated and annoyed by how they have to follow all those pesky little rules while doing their work. It is the only way to do it without turning from citizens to subjects.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#75

Post by Sven7 »

losvedir wrote: post #68
Sven7 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

You do what you can while respecting freedom and privacy, and accept that every once in a while terror attacks may happen. You're giving us a false choice.

Yet politicians the world over, in the aftermath of terrorist attacks are expected to act tough.

I have never heard a shit happens lets move on speech.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#76

Post by grey-area »

Sven7 wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

In a free society, you can't guarantee that you will stop terror attacks. They do cause damage and mayhem, however that is strictly localised unless the government overreacts and introduces draconian measures in a mistaken attempt to find terrorists under every rock. The UK survived decades of terrorism (sponsored by some US politicians like Rep. Peter King, now so ferocious against terrorists) without relying on mass surveillance of the kind it is now engaged in, in partnership with the US. It's not necessary to stop the attacks, only to survive them. Your question is like asking: How can we stop the next war?

In fact the aims of terror are principally to provoke a government to introduce repressive measures and lash out, and in the process, damage itself and its credibility with citizens. I think the aims of Bin Laden were probably to induce terror, fear, and paranoia in the US, and unfortunately they have succeeded, probably beyond their wildest dreams. Huge amounts of money and numbers of lives have been squandered, and the only result has been a series of failed states half-way across the world, a casual disregard for the rule of law, and a growing surveillance state at home destroying the very ideas the US claims to represent.

It's time for the US to recognise that expanding the architecture of surveillance and engaging in an eternal war against an ill-defined enemy is not going to make anyone safer, quite the reverse.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#77

Post by venomsnake »

Sven7 wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

By nuking the rest of the world to glass. If only USA exist there will be no more terrorism. I also intend of stopping crime by preemptively incarcerating everyone and sending them to prison. And I will also stop rape by freezing the sperm of every man when he gets his first ejaculation and then castrate them.

The prevention efforts should be reciprocal to the threat.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#78

Post by smsm42 »

Sven7 wrote: post #71
lukeschlather wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't. We could have a 9/11 type event every year, and it would still not be as big a problem as automobile accidents. If we're going to live in a police state, I would hope the police state would focus on major causes of preventable death, like disease and automobile accidents. Terrorism in the United States is not a serious problem worthy of this level of concern.

This is like saying lets have a lottery every year that picks 3000 people and send them over to the middle east. My point is people have to be pushed to answer the question on how to tackle terrorism to take this debate in a constructive direction. Ofcourse governments will do dumb things but the terrorism problem is a hard one.

If the Middle East is Tel Aviv, I'm ready to go today. Provided the ticket is paid, of course, those are so damn expensive lately.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#79

Post by jlgreco »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #53
Sven7 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

The guy who sold me this tiger-repelling rock said it also worked on terrorists. So far, it looks like he was right.

I hear it works with Communists and witches too.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#80

Post by aspensmonster »

>But R. Scott Oswald, a Washington attorney of the Employment Law Group, called the Obama administration “a friend to whistleblowers,” saying it draws a distinction between legitimate whistleblowers who use internal systems to complain of wrongdoing vs. leakers, who illegally make classified information public.

Jesselyn Radack, Thomas Drake, John Kiriakou, Peter Van Buren, and William Binney didn't seem to think that those "internal systems" were effective. Judging by their treatment, I can't blame Edward Snowden for not deciding to become another body amongst foundations.

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