Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

interfax.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 139 posts

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#121

Post by smokeyj »

outside1234 wrote: post #99
amorphid wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My step-father told me a great story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. While Washington and Moscow at each other's throats, he was on a US Navy warship turning away freighters carrying missiles bound for Cuba. As his boat got close to the Russian ships, the crews on either side would wave at each other and take pictures. Regular ol' people to be friendly no matter their background and are not representative of how thei…

we voted for the policy makers, so despite being friendly, its our fault.

> we voted for the policy makers

most people don't vote

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#122

Post by throwaway9848 »

nayefc wrote: post #95
pekk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be much preferable, of course, to have Russia acting like the big boss around the world, or China.

There's really no better. They're all worse than each other.

I'm glad someone can finally get up on their high horse and say this. I'm sure Anya Politkovskaya and Alexander Litvinenko appreciate it.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#123

Post by crimsonzagar »

pekk wrote: post #84
crimsonzagar wrote: post #15

One question that I saw floating around on Twitter is how could the US Gov charge Snowden on espionage? Espionage doesn't apply or does it? Let's say you and I share some secret. When I pass that information you trusted in me to a third party (who is interested in acquiring that information) secretly for some favor (cash/kind) only then it becomes a case of espionage no? When I share facts that were meant to be confi…

So if I want US military secrets, all I have to do is hire someone to infiltrate, dig them up and then transmit them in the clear for me and my friends to read - and then it is not espionage, because it's "only a revelation"?

Hmm right, that's certainly a catch! But if you consider the situation: why would an enemy acquiring such information would want to come in public domain and shroud it as "a revelation"? It's a useless escape route if the acquiring party is true enemy.

No one would want to lose the advantage of having secretive information by blowing it in the open, right?

Secondly, from what I see from comments above the law makers are using Espionage Act of 1917 to frame/indict all whistleblowers. 1917. Framework of 1917 being applied in the year 2013 :-) That seems bit of a joke in itself.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#124

Post by refurb »

nayefc wrote: post #112
Tloewald wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seymour Hersh is still writing for the New Yorker, Woodward writes extensively on US politics, Michael Moore is still making movies, and Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg can still discuss US foreign policy over a kitchen table. Do you honestly think they're all the same? We're discussing a scandal about the NSA being exposed as doing something I for one have always assumed they were doing as a matter of course (indee…

Maybe not China, but the thought that the US is somehow "free-er" than the rest of the world (yes, including Russia) is false. People in Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, UK, Japan are probably as free as people in the US, if not more.

I would categorically disagree with that. Look at freedom of speech as one example. Talk to the authors in Canada who have been stifled because their speech didn't conform to the gov't multicultural agenda.

Is the US the most free country in the world by every measure? Of course not. Overall is it one of the most free or the most free? I would say yes.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#125

Post by notaddicted »

outside1234 wrote: post #99
amorphid wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My step-father told me a great story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. While Washington and Moscow at each other's throats, he was on a US Navy warship turning away freighters carrying missiles bound for Cuba. As his boat got close to the Russian ships, the crews on either side would wave at each other and take pictures. Regular ol' people to be friendly no matter their background and are not representative of how thei…

we voted for the policy makers, so despite being friendly, its our fault.

Paying taxes is a lot more in line with "Material support or resources" [1]. Anyway, grin-fucked is still fucked [2].

1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2339A

2] http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/03/28/dont-be-a-grin...

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#126

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

rdouble wrote: post #52
vidarh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the HK governments press release reads like diplomat speak for "fuck you, we let him leave even though we know exactly where he left from, and btw. fuck you for spying on us in case you wondered why we're not doing your dirty business (ps: fuck you)", while many other governments would have bent over backwards to accommodate the US, it does indeed seem to have been a quite good starting point.

It's more like they kicked him out and wrote a snotty press release about it to save face.

Either way, he's evaded capture by thugs ^H^H^H^H our Glorious Freedom Loving Homeland.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#127

Post by Tloewald »

nayefc wrote: post #112
Tloewald wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seymour Hersh is still writing for the New Yorker, Woodward writes extensively on US politics, Michael Moore is still making movies, and Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg can still discuss US foreign policy over a kitchen table. Do you honestly think they're all the same? We're discussing a scandal about the NSA being exposed as doing something I for one have always assumed they were doing as a matter of course (indee…

Maybe not China, but the thought that the US is somehow "free-er" than the rest of the world (yes, including Russia) is false. People in Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, UK, Japan are probably as free as people in the US, if not more.

Free-er is not the only metric I care about, but in fact in terms of individual liberties the US is hard to beat. Can you buy assault rifles in any of those countries? Do you elect judges and vote on how national parks control predator populations? It's "free" and democratic in ways that seem pathological. (The fact that the exercise of some of these liberties is a disaster for the majority who would happily surrender them is another story entirely.)

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#128

Post by pmelendez »

wazoox wrote: post #104
Ihmahr wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?

Honestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable.

"Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable."

Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been doing that for years and without any shame.

They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to embarrass people that are no pro-government (nothing relating to felonies or crimes, just to make fun of them). So it is ironic indeed.

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#129

Post by cmsmith »

Ihmahr wrote: post #101
codex wrote: post #94

It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly living under, an authoritarian régi…

> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?

Poor. [1, 2] Pretty much everything bad that the US does, these countries do worse by an order of magnitude. We use hyperbole to compare Snowden to political prisoners in these countries, but I imagine that idea would seem pretty ridiculous to a real political prisoner in China or NK or Russia.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_Index&ol...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World

Re: Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana

#130

Post by codex »

senjmccarthy wrote: post #114
codex wrote: post #94

It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly living under, an authoritarian régi…

It's disappointing to see you write this, codex. I thought you were a pretty smart guy. You seem sure that a trial in the US would be a mega-press event. You mean, like the Manning military trial? Are you reading the press coverage of Snowden? The TV press coverage? How do you think he would be portrayed by the US media? Surely you're not that naive. Indeed it might be better for the cause of domestic surveillance to…

It's possible the press would not portray his trial fairly, but the proceedings are public, and a trial would draw continued press, whereas if Snowden successfully seeks asylum, the story goes cold.

I should elaborate on Snowden's choice of helper countries: is a national security risk to the United States. Here you have someone in possession of state secrets who needs help from a foreign government. That's the definition of compromised. What is he going to trade for protection? More classified information, of course--possibly much more sensitive information than the relatively harmless, widely known) programs like PRISM. He has national security information, and foreign governments want it. This information will eventually flow to the intelligence agencies of China and/or Russia.

Post reply on HN