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We were wrong

kickstarter.com

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Re: We were wrong

#41

Post by Alex3917 »

swombat wrote: post #11
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

See http://curiousrat.com/kickstarter-allowed-funding-for-a-sexu... Quoting from the "manual": > 5) Get CLOSE to her, damn it! > To quote Rob Judge, “Personal space is for pussies.” I already told you that the most successful seducers are those who can’t keep their hands off of women. Well you’re not gonna be able to do that if you aren’t in close!” > “All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands o…

> This is the bit that's being decried as "intrinsically bad" - not seduction in general - because it advocates invading another person's personal space and touching them when they've expressed they don't want to be touched "because it will arouse her".

They are banning all projects related to seduction though. This seems a bit excessive, considering even the supreme court basically released a guide to seduction at one point. (C.f. the 'one bite at the apple' rule as it relates to sexual harassment.)

Re: We were wrong

#43

Post by rimantas »

tomjen3 wrote: post #31
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

Apparently for these people seduction = violence against women. I haven't seen such a broken thinking process anywhere else. If anything seduction is about giving women what they really want. That said it does have a somewhat, hmm, sketchy reputation which is no doubt related to a combination of loathing for men who have a difficult time getting laid and the extreme marketing tactics that those kinds of guides are us…

Take a look at some survey on the subject what women want in terms of sexual fantasies. Dominance from men will be high at the top.

Re: We were wrong

#44

Post by loumf »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

"Freedom of speech" is a limit on the government, not on private companies.

Re: We were wrong

#45

Post by angersock »

ebiester wrote: post #22
xauronx wrote: post #4

Jesus, seems like an over reaction. Books and guides like this are nothing new, and should be taken in context/used appropriately. A nerd in a club is going to take this brash advice like: "All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye…

The excerpted quotes of advice were pretty damn rapey. The problem is that many (every one I've seen) of these "seduction" manuals are written in a way that is hostile toward women.

Would you mind listing some of the quotes you found "rapey"?

Re: We were wrong

#46

Post by shawabawa3 »

goldins wrote: post #21
blairbeckwith wrote: post #6

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person? I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a genera…

No? "Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances."

The author's response:

http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe

> The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape.

Doesn't seem very rapey when you consider this is after several dates and they are alone together. He also says over and over again "If she says no, stop immediately".

Re: We were wrong

#47

Post by Dylan16807 »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

They are refusing to organize payment to these things. They aren't 'banning' them in the sense you're talking about. I find your comparison offensive. You're twisting the meaning of the word 'ban'.

Re: We were wrong

#48

Post by lewispollard »

hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

Well of course the misogynist doesn't believe he's misogynistic. Why should his opinion matter more than the hundreds of people who complained?

Re: We were wrong

#49

Post by garethadams »

maximilianburke wrote: post #12
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

That particular comment is taken from a part of the guide where you're already with a girl in "a private, intimate setting". It's assuming that you're with someone who's already comfortable around you. It's not saying that you should get naked in a nightclub with someone you've just met.

Re: We were wrong

#50

Post by scrrr »

gilrain wrote: post #15

I won't touch the issue of whether the action was right or wrong here on Hacker News, but I think everyone has to admit that this is a brilliant example of an apology done well. They do not equivocate (the "sorry you were offended" apology) and they take direct action to fix what their users felt was wrong (new policy made) as well as somewhat atone for the original offense (donation to RAINN). It's also written simp…

You are right about this being a good apology, but I think placing to much value on a good apology is not healthy. We are already living in a world where words, promises and good intentions matter too much. In the end, actions matter most. In fact, they are the ONLY thing that matters.

I prefer a company with a good track record that issues bad or no apologies to a company with a bad record, but great apologies for all of their mistakes.

I'm not saying anything about kickstarter.com here. I just want to make a point about, and I'm saying this with a wink, apology-porn.

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