We were wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: We were wrong

#21

Post by goldins » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

blairbeckwith wrote: post #6

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person? I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a genera…

No?

"Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances."

Re: We were wrong

#22

Post by ebiester » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

xauronx wrote: post #4

Jesus, seems like an over reaction. Books and guides like this are nothing new, and should be taken in context/used appropriately. A nerd in a club is going to take this brash advice like: "All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye…

The excerpted quotes of advice were pretty damn rapey.

The problem is that many (every one I've seen) of these "seduction" manuals are written in a way that is hostile toward women.

Re: We were wrong

#23

Post by HaloZero » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

josh2600 wrote: post #9

Great apology. Right to the point, no dodging blame, and an acknowledgement of the debt to society. Now, that being said, is this not a take on the book "the game", about picking up women? Am I missing something or is Kickstarter now picking and choosing what is "good" content? Obviously they have to do this to some extent, but where is the line drawn?

I read "The Game", I was curious. It's less how-to guide than a journalist foray into becoming ingrained into the pick up community. Any behavior by the people in the book is just stating facts about what they did. So while it might be viewed as a beginner guide, it's more of a story than anything else.

I believe this is more akin to a guide to specific actions that you should take that are basically misogynistic.

Re: We were wrong

#24

Post by DannoHung » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

Look at all these HNers defending sexual assault.

Re: We were wrong

#25

Post by kepano » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

I don't think one can fault Kickstarter for this or the Kobe Beef Jerky incident. As the platform grows so will the number of abuse cases. The submission process is a fairly strict filter, but from there the project is more than crowd-funding, it becomes increasingly about crowd-sourcing the due diligence process.

My concern is that a crowd-sourced due diligence process can be slow and requires active participation from the backers. That sense of common responsibility is what's needed to help the company take rapid action and for the community to remain a positive place for funding great ideas. I hope Kickstarter can continue inspiring that proactive participation from its users.

Re: We were wrong

#26

Post by roc » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

maximilianburke wrote: post #12

emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

At the same time... if this same content was written as fiction, with the viewpoint character/hero accomplishing his goals through these same methods and relaying that same philosophy through dialogue or internal monologue, would it be (as) problematic?

Re: We were wrong

#27

Post by Tichy » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #18

Tichy wrote: post #3

I guess to understand this one has to consider that Kickstarter is based in puritan America?

I'm not sure where you get that from. Puritans have never been big on the rights of women.

They seem to have a problem with the notion of sex, though.

Re: We were wrong

#28

Post by hacker789 » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men.

If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it.

Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles.

> The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape.

http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe

Re: We were wrong

#29

Post by citricsquid » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

How does removing the kickstarter project after funding has taken place work for the backers? Do the backers no longer get their rewards? Does the project creator have no access to the backers information? Will Kickstarter refund the backers out of pocket? Strange situation.

Re: We were wrong

#30

Post by iandanforth » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to ban any of them, and that is a good thing.

If your mission is focused on art I would encourage the kickstarter group to go back and re-read the history of banned works of art, and pay attention to which groups were pushing for those bans. I suspect you won't like the company you now keep.