Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

redtape.nbcnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#21

Post by SCAQTony »

colkassad wrote: post #18
just2n wrote: post #2

From "it's only to catch terrorists, guys" to potentially "it's also used to prove guilt in minor domestic cases." I, for one, hope this succeeds. Maybe then we'll have a way to get the masses to understand just how bad this surveillance state really is, for all of us.

It's only a matter of time until this data is used for political means (see the recent IRS story). All it will take is someone coming into power that threatens the agency or its valued partners in any way. Then out comes the embarrassing tweets or tax evasion evidence pulled from Amazon. This will only become more easy as the young people of today become the Senators and Presidential candidates of tomorrow.

You nailed it: they could start out by taking out some child pornographers, money launderers, corrupt congressmen, senators, judges and mayors. Then move on to Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, members of the press, uppity hackers like Aaron Schwartz, et al.

But wait there is more,

How about some ambitious sys admin from Booz Allen or otherwise sell the information to HR departments, the Enquirer, The Daily Mail, Goldman Sacks, the Chinese, the Russians, or start his own "protection business"?

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#23

Post by neurotech1 »

dev1n wrote: post #4

The data was collected without a warrant. It cannot be used in court.

IANAL but as I understand it, they need a FISA or regular federal search warrant if the data is collected for a "criminal investigation", but do not need a warrant if it was previously collected under a national security program. In a criminal case, they have up to 72 hours to get a warrant, if they give an actual wiretap order.

This may be different in a "national security" investigation, where the PATRIOT Act is involved.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#24

Post by soneil »

powertower wrote: post #9
Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The laws of evidence require that prosecutors turn over to the defense any records they have that might help prove a suspect's innocence." In other words, they were entitled to them 10 years ago, but now that they know they exist they can actually request them.

Those courts and prosecutors have no access to classified datastores of the NSA. That data is classified and protected by law. What you are quoting is completely something else, and just references the data the prosecutors have on hand that is gathered and developed as part of the investigation.

The clever tactic here is that it may not matter if they gain access to the records or not. That's less important than it seems. All they have to do is plant a seed of doubt in the jurors.

That's the step that's going to make this all rather crazy. I could claim my classified phone records put me on the other side of the country, whether it's true or false. It'll still create that doubt, and the gov't will deny the records exist either way.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#25

Post by aqme28 »

powertower wrote: post #9
Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The laws of evidence require that prosecutors turn over to the defense any records they have that might help prove a suspect's innocence." In other words, they were entitled to them 10 years ago, but now that they know they exist they can actually request them.

Those courts and prosecutors have no access to classified datastores of the NSA. That data is classified and protected by law. What you are quoting is completely something else, and just references the data the prosecutors have on hand that is gathered and developed as part of the investigation.

The data is classified and protected by law, yes, but there are other equally (or more important) laws that say the government is required to hand over all potentially exculpatory evidence to the defendant.

Which law trumps? That's for the courts to decide.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#26

Post by malandrew »

If I were on the jury, I would seek to nullify the jury for every single case where the NSA refuses to provide the defense with the information they want or where the prosecution uses NSA data to prove guilt.

The former because that data shouldn't be a one way street and the latter because the NSA shouldn't have that data in the first place.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#27

Post by rosser »

dev1n wrote: post #4

The data was collected without a warrant. It cannot be used in court.

IANAL, but I believe the "fruit of the poisoned tree" doctrine only ties the hands of the State in criminal proceedings. The defense can put forth any evidence or argument at all, provided it's in good faith, and not knowingly false.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#29

Post by jdc »

powertower wrote: post #9
Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The laws of evidence require that prosecutors turn over to the defense any records they have that might help prove a suspect's innocence." In other words, they were entitled to them 10 years ago, but now that they know they exist they can actually request them.

Those courts and prosecutors have no access to classified datastores of the NSA. That data is classified and protected by law. What you are quoting is completely something else, and just references the data the prosecutors have on hand that is gathered and developed as part of the investigation.

Only the executive branch is entitled to this data, right?

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#30

Post by rodgerd »

fiatmoney wrote: post #20
colkassad wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a matter of time until this data is used for political means (see the recent IRS story). All it will take is someone coming into power that threatens the agency or its valued partners in any way. Then out comes the embarrassing tweets or tax evasion evidence pulled from Amazon. This will only become more easy as the young people of today become the Senators and Presidential candidates of tomorrow.

"Out comes the blackmail" is an optimistic scenario. More likely, it's quietly made known that they have such information, and magically, their position changes - with the public none the wiser.

Pretty much describes J Edgar Hoover's career. And why, once the Mob got dirt on him, they were free to do as they pleased with no FBI interference.
Post reply on HN