Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases • Hacker News Board

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#11

Post by sliverstorm » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 1:26 AM UTC

just2n wrote: post #2

From "it's only to catch terrorists, guys" to potentially "it's also used to prove guilt in minor domestic cases." I, for one, hope this succeeds. Maybe then we'll have a way to get the masses to understand just how bad this surveillance state really is, for all of us.

You know, it could wind up being good. Isn't one of our most basic tenants to do our damndest to avoid convicting the innocent, even at the cost of letting some guilty go free? If it succeeds, we could potentially see even better exoneration numbers for the innocent, and I'm not certain how to weight that against my privacy.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#12

Post by jlgreco » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 1:38 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

just2n wrote: post #2

From "it's only to catch terrorists, guys" to potentially "it's also used to prove guilt in minor domestic cases." I, for one, hope this succeeds. Maybe then we'll have a way to get the masses to understand just how bad this surveillance state really is, for all of us.

You know, it could wind up being good. Isn't one of our most basic tenants to do our damndest to avoid convicting the innocent, even at the cost of letting some guilty go free? If it succeeds, we could potentially see even better exoneration numbers for the innocent, and I'm not certain how to weight that against my privacy.

If we felt that the accuracy of the justice system trumped all privacy concerns, then we could have voluntarily adopted such systems years ago after honest plain public discussion.

We didn't.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#13

Post by Alex3917 » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 1:40 AM UTC

powertower wrote: post #9

Alex3917 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The laws of evidence require that prosecutors turn over to the defense any records they have that might help prove a suspect's innocence." In other words, they were entitled to them 10 years ago, but now that they know they exist they can actually request them.

Those courts and prosecutors have no access to classified datastores of the NSA. That data is classified and protected by law. What you are quoting is completely something else, and just references the data the prosecutors have on hand that is gathered and developed as part of the investigation.

> That data is classified and protected by law.

The defense team doesn't need the data, they only need to show that the government has data that it's withholding.

> What you are quoting is completely something else, and just references the data the prosecutors have on hand that is gathered and developed as part of the investigation.

IANAL, but Solove is arguably the nation's top privacy law expert (along with Jeffrey Rosen, who is a professor at the same university) so I'm assuming he knows his stuff.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#14

Post by sliverstorm » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 1:44 AM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #12

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, it could wind up being good. Isn't one of our most basic tenants to do our damndest to avoid convicting the innocent, even at the cost of letting some guilty go free? If it succeeds, we could potentially see even better exoneration numbers for the innocent, and I'm not certain how to weight that against my privacy.

If we felt that the accuracy of the justice system trumped all privacy concerns, then we could have voluntarily adopted such systems years ago after honest plain public discussion. We didn't.

Did that discussion actually happen yet? Maybe I missed it.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#15

Post by jlgreco » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #14

jlgreco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we felt that the accuracy of the justice system trumped all privacy concerns, then we could have voluntarily adopted such systems years ago after honest plain public discussion. We didn't.

Did that discussion actually happen yet? Maybe I missed it.

That is my point...

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#16

Post by sliverstorm » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #15

sliverstorm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did that discussion actually happen yet? Maybe I missed it.

That is my point...

Well then maybe now is the time for that discussion?

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#17

Post by mayneack » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 2:10 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #14

jlgreco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we felt that the accuracy of the justice system trumped all privacy concerns, then we could have voluntarily adopted such systems years ago after honest plain public discussion. We didn't.

Did that discussion actually happen yet? Maybe I missed it.

Some sort of discussion got us the 4th amendment.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#18

Post by colkassad » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 2:24 AM UTC

just2n wrote: post #2

From "it's only to catch terrorists, guys" to potentially "it's also used to prove guilt in minor domestic cases." I, for one, hope this succeeds. Maybe then we'll have a way to get the masses to understand just how bad this surveillance state really is, for all of us.

It's only a matter of time until this data is used for political means (see the recent IRS story). All it will take is someone coming into power that threatens the agency or its valued partners in any way. Then out comes the embarrassing tweets or tax evasion evidence pulled from Amazon. This will only become more easy as the young people of today become the Senators and Presidential candidates of tomorrow.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#19

Post by jlgreco » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #16

jlgreco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my point...

Well then maybe now is the time for that discussion?

You can have it whenever you like, but such a decision cannot be made retroactively. If we as a society decide that we want to make that tradeoff, then we can only make it going forward. Those who do not consent to such an invasion of privacy must be given fair warning. For the majority to retroactively strip privacy would be tyrannical. I should not have to explain why.

Re: Lawyers eye NSA data as treasure trove for evidence in murder, divorce cases

#20

Post by fiatmoney » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 2:41 AM UTC

colkassad wrote: post #18

just2n wrote: post #2

From "it's only to catch terrorists, guys" to potentially "it's also used to prove guilt in minor domestic cases." I, for one, hope this succeeds. Maybe then we'll have a way to get the masses to understand just how bad this surveillance state really is, for all of us.

It's only a matter of time until this data is used for political means (see the recent IRS story). All it will take is someone coming into power that threatens the agency or its valued partners in any way. Then out comes the embarrassing tweets or tax evasion evidence pulled from Amazon. This will only become more easy as the young people of today become the Senators and Presidential candidates of tomorrow.

"Out comes the blackmail" is an optimistic scenario. More likely, it's quietly made known that they have such information, and magically, their position changes - with the public none the wiser.