Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden • Hacker News Board

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#261

Post by vph » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #241

vph wrote: post #5

Brilliant move, maybe, unless he was manipulated by the Chinese. It is very interesting that the allegation that the NSA has been hacking into Chinese systems came out at the time when the US and China are meeting and Obama is trying to admonish the Chinese on hacking. It would be interesting to explore if Edward Snowden has any handler. And how exactly he chose Hong Kong and decided to reveal that the NSA has been h…

It is "very interesting" in the sense that Snowden may have realised that strategically talking to Chinese press and leaking information that would be likely to be looked upon favorably by the Chinese government at this time would be likely to be beneficial to his chances of avoiding extradition in the future. I'm not sure what you are trying to imply - the choice and timing of that particular leak would seem to be a…

If he is afraid of being charged in the US, I would think he wouldn't have done this in the first place. Initially, it is said he did this because he cared about Americans. But by working with the Chinese, he is no longer a patriot in the eyes of many Americans. Overall, it appears like he was manipulated or at least fueled by the Chinese operatives.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#262

Post by Goladus » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

beachstartup wrote: post #133

STRML wrote: post #79

I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist's paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in. Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity), maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. "Burner"-style phones can be as low as $8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on th…

yeah to cut straight to the chase a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA.

a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA.

There's really nothing like Hong Kong in the US-- a New York-sized city with a dramatically different cultural, governmental, and economic history.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#263

Post by g8oz » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 3:29 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #15

onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

Would Snowden be treated like Ellsberg or like Bradley Manning? Big difference.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#264

Post by pitt1980 » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 3:30 PM UTC

glurgh wrote: post #243

vidarh wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where else would you suggest? Most European countries have to a smaller or greater extent been complicit in illegal CIA rendition flights over the last decade and/or are extradition-happy or have already made it clear he's not a desirable person to host (UK telling airlines not to allow him onto flights). Poorer countries or countries with unstable governments provide plenty of options to bribe someone to pick him up…

I'd suggest he should have quit his job, made his disclosures and stayed put. Look at the three people in the linked interview - while it's undisputed that they've suffered great disruptions to their careers and lives in general, all three are free men, giving interviews to a national US newspaper. Edward Snowden is a fugitive in some strange limbo largely of his own making which he appears, inexplicably, quite blith…

"I'd put 'covert CIA assassination' in the same bucket and I don't really know how to put this politely but this is, in my mind, tinfoilhattery."

I don't know how much any of us is in a position to assess the how 'tinfoilhattery' the risk of this is,

its easy to dismiss that as something that only happens in movies, but if it happens in real life, would we be any the wiser?

we do know that Iranian scientists have low life expectancies

couple of thoughts:

1) Snowdon is probably in a better position than us to assess that risk, and seemed to think it was real

2) either way, going public lessened the risk, if he gets in a drunk driving accident next week, or is shot by a mugger, most people won't assume it was coincidence

3) I think Mannings fate is argument enough against staying put

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#265

Post by Kurtz79 » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 3:42 PM UTC

steve19 wrote: post #12

Somewhat disingenuous to suggest swapping sim cards to avoid being tracked. This myth is one that law enforcement love. They just track phones with IMEI numbers.

I don't know about you, but where I live (Western Europe) it would be much harder to come up with an anonymous SIM than an anonymous phone.

I could walk today in any second-hand shop (selling used CDs, videogames, books, coffee machines etc...) and buy a crappy old unlocked Nokia, for less than 20 bucks, cash, no ID required.

But if I would need a SIM card, even if top-up, I would need to go to a service provider and give at least a valid ID.

The weak link would still be the SIM, not the phone. A place where you could easily get anonymous SIMs would be a definite advantage in order to mantain anonymity, so I guess the author has a point.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#266

Post by pyre » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 3:55 PM UTC

throwawayyyyyy wrote: post #228

toyg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I don't see NZ ever abandoning their strategic intelligence alliance with US and UK (which produced, among other things, the original Echelon). Blowback all you want, Snowden would still be sent straight to Washington.

new zealand gave the big F U to the USA back in the 80s when they refused the USS Buchanan nuclear powered destroyer entry to the port as it violated the nuclear-free legislation.

Harbouring Snowden would probably create a lot more tension than just refusing a port entry to a specific boat, though I don't know the rest of the context of that incident.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#267

Post by tomkarlo » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 4:09 PM UTC

Qantourisc wrote: post #208

cwp wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it sounds like their system is the polar opposite of the US: they can't choose their government, but it does what the people want.

If China cuts pollution, respects human rights, and improves working/live for a lot of people (those are the complains I hear about)it should be a good place. Then the only debatable thing that remains in censorship, and "absolute power corrupts absolutely". It might not be a democracy, but if people are truly happy/content ... why would they riot ?

So if China solves its three biggest, most intractable problems, it'll be a great place to live? No problem.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#268

Post by tokenadult » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 4:14 PM UTC

yread wrote: post #227

tokenadult wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) As Confucius said, in one of his most famous take-downs, "始吾於人也、聽其言而信其行、今吾於人也、聽其言而觀其行。At first in dealing with people, I would hear their words and trust their deeds, but now my way of dealing with people is to hear their words and observe their deeds." We'll see what appears about his planning and his view toward China and a lot of other things about him…

> Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it?

Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it?

I have a basis of knowledge about how language proficiency is defined (the federal government in the United States has a standard rating scale of foreign language proficiency, as do most other countries with an active diplomatic corps and military alliances with other countries) and I know how much time it takes in specialized training programs and in-country to become proficient in Chinese, none of which Snowden has. I would find it more believable that he has some knowledge of Japanese, because Snowden lived in Japan for a while, but he apparently has little knowledge of that language either.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#269

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 4:45 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #267

Qantourisc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China cuts pollution, respects human rights, and improves working/live for a lot of people (those are the complains I hear about)it should be a good place. Then the only debatable thing that remains in censorship, and "absolute power corrupts absolutely". It might not be a democracy, but if people are truly happy/content ... why would they riot ?

So if China solves its three biggest, most intractable problems, it'll be a great place to live? No problem.

No problem, as long as you're not an ethnic or religious minority.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#270

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 4:54 PM UTC

jakobe wrote: post #211

krapp wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA. Define 'free' in this context.

Maybe freedom to communicate without being subject to government surveillance?

Unless you're a democratic activist: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/eap/187483.htm (Section 2(a)). (" Democratic activists claimed central government authorities closely monitored their e-mails and Internet use. In a Netizens Power survey, 33 percent of users of Golden Forum, a popular local Internet community forum, said they had some of their online posts deleted over the past year and almost half indicated this was because their posted content was 'too politically sensitive.'")

Also, the system they have in place for surveillance of telecommunications seems exactly the same as the one the U.S. does: "The use of covert surveillance and the interception of telecommunications and postal communications can be granted only to prevent or detect 'serious crime' or protect 'public security.' The law establishes a two-tiered system for granting approval for surveillance activities, under which surveillance of a more intrusive nature requires the approval of a judge, and surveillance of a less intrusive nature requires the approval of a senior law-enforcement official." (Section 1(f)).

Indeed, the U.S. system is a bit more stringent, because "surveillance of a less intrusive nature" requires a law-enforcement official to get a FISA warrant (from a court that isn't an Article III court but is composed of Article III judges).