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Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

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Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#191
You can also sneak out of Hong Kong easily, and it is an hour ferry ride a to Macau or Guangzhou or a bus or taxi ride to Shenzen.

Hong Kong has very loose exit visa policies on western passports. You can jump on a plane to some destinations with your passport only being checked at checkin (which is of the ticket). It is very simple to get to any number of ~50 countries in the space of hours and not having your identity checked until you land.

Private banking in Hong Kong means he can have money sent to him and he can spend money without worrying about who finds out who supports him.

He is also likely to find work, since there is a lot of English speaking expat work in the country especially in the IT industry.

I'm unsure if he has a path to citizenship, a path to residency is easy but I think the only way he could swap his passport is if he works out an entire 4 or 5 year residency or go citizenship via asylum.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#192
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wolframalpha reports hong kong as 4th most dense country (for anyone wondering): http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+density+by+c...

True, but it's a bit misleading. Although the developed areas of Hong Kong are quite literally wall-to-wall skyscrapers, the majority of Hong Kong's land is undeveloped country parks and village areas. Less than 25% of total land area of ~400 sq. mi. is actually developed.[0] The average density of those developed areas is thus incredibly high. Mong Kok for example, has a density of 340,000 / sq. mi., which is descri…

the majority of Hong Kong's land is undeveloped country parks and village areas. Less than 25% of [...] is actually developed

That is nothing short of astonishing. Are the parks and undeveloped areas open to the public?

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentioned picking up Mandarin in one of his Ars posts, I think. Not "fiendishly" clever, just apparently more clever than the folks running our intelligence services.

Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) As Confucius said, in one of his most famous take-downs, "始吾於人也、聽其言而信其行、今吾於人也、聽其言而觀其行。At first in dealing with people, I would hear their words and trust their deeds, but now my way of dealing with people is to hear their words and observe their deeds." We'll see what appears about his planning and his view toward China and a lot of other things about him…

Time will tell us more about Snowden but I believe his intentions to be primarily towards exposing the surveillance state for American citizens. Its existence as described by his documents is contrary to our guiding principles. I kind of doubt he was too focused on exposing this to the rest of the world but feels that it's a necessary part of what he's doing for his country.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#194
I live in Hong Kong too (about 20 minutes walk from the Mira where Snowden was allegedly staying), and his stated reasons of coming here due to the country's commitment to free speech and political dissent are baffling and misguided. When compared to China, Hong Kong seems free but the reality is very different.

Start with the South China Morning Post, the main English language newspaper here which has been covering this story extensively. The current editor, Wang Xiangwei, joined in 2011, is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Congress, and has been criticized for self-censorship multiple times since taking over.

Then you have the political system here, where people can vote in local elections but not in the main election that actually decides the Chief Executive (President). The current CE, CY Leung, was dogged by accusations that he was a Communist Party member throughout the election period. These accusations were not without merit given his political history (appointed to a prominent committee at a young age, a position traditionally occupied by party members), and these issues have not died down since he's taken office.

It makes no sense for Snowden to have come to HK for its political freedom. Neither is this city a hotbed for political dissent. The Occupy movement here was largely ineffective (there were often more homeless people than protestors at the camp), and power here is concentrated in the elite (HK has one of the highest Gini coefficients in the world).

He came here because here he can leverage China vs the US. Any talk of political freedom or appreciating the culture is pure fluff.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#195
post #81
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system. The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more than they did Aa…

Its this sort of uneducated, a-historical crap that makes it impossible to read HN lately. If you think the government was less scary back then, in the grip of anti-communist paranoia, you're insane, deluded, or just plain uneducated. Saying that MLK could count on a fair shake from a justice system that didn't give any minority a fair shake back then, much less political radicals, is the height of ridiculousness.

It was scary back then for sure. MLK and his supporters suffered beatings, faced extrajudicial lynchings, etc. I'm not disputing any of that. Yet, we don't have to speculate whether MLK could count on a fair shake from the justice system, because history tells us. MLK was arrested 30 times[1], yet he spent relatively little time incarcerated. The longest sentence he ever received was 4 months (compare that to Aaron Swartz' 6 months plea offer), but he served less than that. His famous Letter from a Birmingham Jail was written when he was in jail for only 11 days[2]. As screwed up as things were then, the justice system was not so draconian that it prevented him from leading an effective campaign of civil disobedience.

I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that Edward Snowden, if arrested in the US, would be denied bail. He would be facing decades in prison. It's quite likely he'd be held in solitary confinement and he could even be subjected to "Special Administrative Measures" (a recent invention) that would severely restrict his freedom to communicate with the outside world[3]. There would be no Letter from a Federal Detention Center from Edward Snowden. These draconian sentences and measures make it completely impossible to conduct a meaningful campaign of civil disobedience, as they can be wielded to completely neutralize a movement's leaders and serve as a warning to anyone else who is thinking of doing the same thing.

What's truly ahistoric is comparing Snowden to MLK to suggest he needs to come back to the US and face the consequences. Snowden may not be facing beatings and lynch mobs, but he would be facing a justice system that would treat him far more harshly than it ever treated MLK. We've thankfully lost many of the great evils of the past, but there are new evils. Civil disobedience is even more difficult today, and what's especially insidious is that instead of it being discouraged by lynch mobs and corrupt southern sheriffs, it's discouraged by the justice system itself.

(We should be thinking about the consequences Snowden would face because the essential civil disobedience of the future may very well be about information, but if you'd rather look at "conventional" protesters more akin to MLK, consider Al Sharpton being jailed for 90 days in 2001 for trespassing during a protest against a naval base in San Juan[4], or the case of the anti-nuke protesters that was on HN a few days ago[5]. Not quite as draconian as the situation Snowden could be facing, but the sentences are still unfair, longer than what MLK faced, and make carrying out effective civil disobedience extremely difficult.)

[1] http://www.thekingcenter.org/faqs

[2] http://www.lib.lsu.edu/hum/mlk/srs216.html

[3] They're mostly used for "dangerous" prisoners, like suspected or convicted terrorists, but they're also used for those accused or convicted of espionage charges: http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/June/09-ag-564.html

[4] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/24/nyregion/sharpton-and-3-fr...

[5] https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/05/15-7

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#196
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did. It wasn't without it's hiccups. But, there he is in NZ still doing two things that he apparently loves to do, trolling and making money.

He trolls Hollywood interests, Snowden is effectively trolling the whole US government; the difference is of some importance. NZ was in the original Echelon program, in terms of intelligence they fall squarely in line with GCHQ and friends. It's really one of the worst locations he could choose, right after the US and Britain.

Hong Kong also does not have a CIA/NSA/GCHQ/MI-6/MSS type agency. Your statement make me think Snowden saw the level of cooperation on the intel side and picked someone without a horse in the race.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#197
post #79

I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist's paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in. Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity), maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. "Burner"-style phones can be as low as $8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on th…

I lived and worked in/around Central when I was in HK a couple years ago. HKCSL 3G data was unusably slow (I don't think cell towers handle extreme density well). I switched to Three and it was slightly better but still horrendous compared to T-mobile in SF or Rogers in Toronto.

I paid 50HKD/month for "50mbps" cable internet (some special deal at the time). What a joke. I got 50mbps torrenting and about 0.5mbps from anywhere outside Hong Kong.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#198
post #94
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in conspiracy theory territory. You really think there's no difference between sending strike teams to kill (a) the number one wanted war criminal responsible for the second biggest attack on your soil into a country where you already have troops for the same purpose, and (b) a regular old whistleblower into an independent country that owes you nothing?

Prior to the Osama bin Laden strike, claiming that such a thing could happen (the US sending a strike team into Pakistan without any approval/warning) would be in conspiracy theory territory. I'm not saying that the US will send in a strike team to Hong Kong (or Pakistan or another political heavy-weight) over Snowden. I was operating under the assumption that most of the countries with no extradition to the US might…

Wha?

It's been official presidential policy since the first Bush administration and re-asserted under Clinton.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd39.htm is an example of a presidential directive regarding extraordinary rendition to the US. (Never mind the extraordinary rendition to countries such as Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc., used to circumvent legal issues regarding torture.)

There's plenty of historical precedent as well. Israel has many well-known cases of tracking Nazis down on foreign soil and rendering them for trial with US support and assistance. Eichmann, Entebbe, Munich/Operation Wrath of God, etc.

Once you get into 'universal jurisdiction', you'll discover violations of international law committed without the assistance of the country harboring enemies of our United States. Sometimes the US has worked around official channels, such as in the case of the Achille Lauro.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#199
post #98
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty hard? China has steep controls on its own citizens leaving China. Hong Kong is now part of China, and probably a favoured way out.

Travel between HK and 'mainland' China regulated, as I understand it. It's possible that China is looking more closely to that border as an escape point than people leaving HK.

It is significantly more involved (I don't know if I'd say difficult as this is tough to judge) for a PRC citizen to enter HK than it is for, say, a citizen of the USA.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#200
post #196
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He trolls Hollywood interests, Snowden is effectively trolling the whole US government; the difference is of some importance. NZ was in the original Echelon program, in terms of intelligence they fall squarely in line with GCHQ and friends. It's really one of the worst locations he could choose, right after the US and Britain.

Hong Kong also does not have a CIA/NSA/GCHQ/MI-6/MSS type agency. Your statement make me think Snowden saw the level of cooperation on the intel side and picked someone without a horse in the race.

Everyone is active in Hong Kong, and the Chinese military and intelligence organizations are the "home team".
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