Earlier quoted context omitted.
yeah to cut straight to the chase a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA.
As long as you don't care about the whole democracy thing.
The US is a democracy?
Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
181–190 of 311 posts
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
It can be spun other ways too. Snowden could be heralded as "proof" that China is better than the US. "US citizen flees oppressive government, seeking refuge in China." I'm sure that this incident will also enter the lexicon of North Korea when they try to bring up the bad things that US has/may have done in order to justify their own actions.
Do you think that Chinese are that stupid? They all know their wealthy elite send kids and wife to the US, why would they do that if China was better?
The way that I understand it, a lot of the propaganda that the Chinese see in the media is known to be propaganda (i.e. it's not fooling anyone). Why would this be any different?
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fair enough, I'll concede the point. But of course, they would just as well argue we're in the War on Terror. It would be an obvious flimsy justification but, there you are.
You really don't understand what a formal declaration of war is, do you?
He could be forgiven for not understanding what a formal declaration of war is, because the US hasn't issued such a declaration for the better part of a century.
That hasn't stopped us from starting or entering numerous wars, of course... they're just "undeclared." Cuts down on the paperwork, dontchaknow.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#184This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…
"It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together." Perhaps this still qualifies as striking, but it's becoming rapidly more common, as mainstream journalism becomes ever more predictable and imitative, and individuals with expertise and actual insight, not working for news organizations, stand out as the only voices worth payin…
Not to mention they missed the whole subprime mortage crisis and never questioned the weapons of mass destruction ruse for invading Iraq.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
Prior to the Osama bin Laden strike, claiming that such a thing could happen (the US sending a strike team into Pakistan without any approval/warning) would be in conspiracy theory territory. I'm not saying that the US will send in a strike team to Hong Kong (or Pakistan or another political heavy-weight) over Snowden. I was operating under the assumption that most of the countries with no extradition to the US might…
Prior to the Osama bin Laden strike, claiming that such a thing could happen (the US sending a strike team into Pakistan without any approval/warning) would be in conspiracy theory territory. No it would not, because Presidential candidate Obama made it clear he would do this in a debate in October 2008: And if we have Osama bin Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take them out,…
Well, I stand corrected. My point was that not-so-long-ago, such a thing would be unheard of. Seems not-so-long-ago would be prior to that 2008 speech. It's worth noting that what he said in his campaign speech, and what he does in office are two different things. That said, it even being in his speech would probably bump it out of conspiracy theory territory.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system. The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more than they did Aa…
Its this sort of uneducated, a-historical crap that makes it impossible to read HN lately. If you think the government was less scary back then, in the grip of anti-communist paranoia, you're insane, deluded, or just plain uneducated. Saying that MLK could count on a fair shake from a justice system that didn't give any minority a fair shake back then, much less political radicals, is the height of ridiculousness.
Hey rayiner, if it helps at all, I frequently follow your comments on Hacker News, and I've been able to grasp all your (very cogent) examples of how the government was worse in the 20th century. So it's not falling on deaf ears.
Just wanted to give some encouragement since you seem really discouraged by HN this week. It's been straining on the whole community, I think.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
You really don't understand what a formal declaration of war is, do you?
I do. I'm suggesting that will probably be the justification, regardless. What is treason and what gets treated as treason can be two different things.
Sorry, but even the most agressive prosecutor is highly unlikely to bring a charge that is so easily and cleanly dismissed. It's like trying to charge someone with the murder of a person who clearly isn't dead. Our justice system has gotten hyper-agressive, but it's not that bad. At least not yet.
A far more likely tack would be trying him under the Espionage Act, which is vague enough to make prosecution easy and defense hard. Relatively speaking, at least.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#188I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist's paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in. Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity), maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. "Burner"-style phones can be as low as $8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on th…
Wolframalpha reports hong kong as 4th most dense country (for anyone wondering): http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+density+by+c...
True, but it's a bit misleading. Although the developed areas of Hong Kong are quite literally wall-to-wall skyscrapers, the majority of Hong Kong's land is undeveloped country parks and village areas.
Less than 25% of total land area of ~400 sq. mi. is actually developed.[0] The average density of those developed areas is thus incredibly high. Mong Kok for example, has a density of 340,000 / sq. mi., which is described as the highest population density of any district in the world.[1]
[0] http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/facts.htm
[1] http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/11/world_population_wh...
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#189I'm curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a further country as well? I'm not aware of there being a warrant out for his arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let's just assume nonstop flights)?
Apparently INTERPOL can issue red notices that are not public. So its possible if he tried to leave Hong Kong under his own ID he'd get arrested. I assume he doesn't have a real forged passport. But how hard do they check for leaving Hong Kong? Could he get to Iceland and instead of trying to fool Icelandic passport control, just request asylum?
They spend 30 seconds per person at the HK airport on average (was late for a flight and was timing it to see if I needed to start doing something). However, I'm sure they swipe your passport and the computer system immediately displays something if there is a problem.
However, he's in Hong Kong. I expect that a "real forged passport" or a high quality fake passport or an actual passport stolen from someone is... procurable. Maybe a nice Australian passport, for example.
Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
China can and does easily suppress dissent. They love opportunities to jab back at the US regarding human rights issues. That's worth a lot more than the very very very small risk that Snowden presents toward inspiring emulators.
> China can and does easily suppress dissent. Why do you feel the need to add "easily"? It is not easy at all. Some dissident like the artist Ai Weiwei recently are playing all the time with the sensitive nerves of the regime but he managed to make himself famous enough, and to never crosses the red line too far as to get "suppressed". For instance, there is this picture of him giving the finger to Mao in Tiananmen s…
How is it not easy? For every Ai Weiwei whose fame gives him some protection (and who still ends up getting harassed and put under house arrest) there are many Li Wangyangs
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/world/asia/chinese-activis...
They don't seem to have had much trouble at all keeping him in jail for 22 years from where he probably didn't get to do a lot of public dissenting.