Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden • Hacker News Board

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#101

Post by rst » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:38 AM UTC

msg wrote: post #14

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

Martin Luther King didn't live in a world where we imprison innocent men in legal limbo without trial or habeas corpus, or where we officially sanctioned torture and the oubliette. He could trust that he would be vindicated by the justice system. The whole point of the Snowden story is that the government is not trustworthy in this era. I would not trust the US government to give him justice any more than they did Aa…

King lived in a world where extra-judicial killings were frequent in the South, and the perpetrators (many with connections to local law enforcement) had effective impunity.

As to Federal law enforcement, the FBI tried to blackmail him personally with recordings implicating him in extramarital affairs; see http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo...

Also, the 1950s Red Scare was a fairly recent memory; that resulted in ruining the livelihoods of numerous Americans, including at least one prominent and politically active African-American, Paul Robeson.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#102

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:39 AM UTC

anologwintermut wrote: post #18

crazygringo wrote: post #7

I'm curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a further country as well? I'm not aware of there being a warrant out for his arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let's just assume nonstop flights)?

Apparently INTERPOL can issue red notices that are not public. So its possible if he tried to leave Hong Kong under his own ID he'd get arrested. I assume he doesn't have a real forged passport. But how hard do they check for leaving Hong Kong? Could he get to Iceland and instead of trying to fool Icelandic passport control, just request asylum?

>how hard do they check for leaving Hong Kong?

Busy border guards are busy. He might slip in unnoticed on some dodgy documents. Also, HK is an island, and China is like, right there. One could get into the country unseen via boat very easily. Boats are coming and going along the coast all the time.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#103

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:45 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #96

rdl wrote: post #80

I actually don't think Hong Kong was a great choice, as it brings up the whole question of foreign intelligence service involvement. He absolutely should have picked a common law jurisdiction (like Hong Kong), and probably not US/UK/Canada, but NZ would have worked pretty well. He's not "in hiding" from the intelligence services. I suspect even second tier countries know where he is.

I'm sure Kim Dotcom thought his move to NZ had "worked pretty well".

It did. It wasn't without it's hiccups. But, there he is in NZ still doing two things that he apparently loves to do, trolling and making money.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#104

Post by akiselev » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:47 AM UTC

joonix wrote: post #76

gruseom wrote: post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

I haven't seen any articles discuss a major issue: his immigration status. If he's on a visitor/business visa he likely only has 6-12 months in the country. If he's there as a tourist, 90 days. If he overstays his visa, he can be arrested and deported.

By which time he can probably get a Visa somewhere else and rinse and repeat, shuffling between two secure locations and flight paths. Once extradition proceedings have begun, he can no longer be deported.

Deportation and removal orders still have to go through the court system though: http://www.hkhrm.org.hk/english/reports/eimrev96.html#Deport...

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#105

Post by e3pi » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:47 AM UTC

spitx wrote: post #68

jlgreco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we want him to end up like Manning? Why would anybody wish that upon another human? It is a barbaric thing to suggest.

I do not wish (or expect) for Snowden to be sentenced with capital punishment if he were to turn himself in. However any attorney or advocacy organization will find it extremely arduous to prove that he did this in good faith. Fleeing only makes it worse. It is universally considered a symptom of insincerity. An insincerity of mission and an insincerity of motive. It will be an entirely unconvincing case even if it w…

The cause for whistle blowing is totally independent of respect or disrespect of a state's corrupt or otherwise judicial system. If you're an international game changer, what we're talking about here, ES initiated a cause far transcending something as trivial as what the political poseurs back home think of him.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#106

Post by toyg » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:48 AM UTC

spitx wrote: post #68

jlgreco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we want him to end up like Manning? Why would anybody wish that upon another human? It is a barbaric thing to suggest.

I do not wish (or expect) for Snowden to be sentenced with capital punishment if he were to turn himself in. However any attorney or advocacy organization will find it extremely arduous to prove that he did this in good faith. Fleeing only makes it worse. It is universally considered a symptom of insincerity. An insincerity of mission and an insincerity of motive. It will be an entirely unconvincing case even if it w…

This is a common attack on activists: "if you're really interested in your fellow man, you must act like a saint hermit. Anything less than that is unacceptable and means you're wrong on "

How is the problem (that the NSA can record everything we do online) related to a young man's attempts to save his skin?

Would the NSA stop spying on us if it turned out that Snowden was a buddhist monk? Would the NSA stop spying on us if he'd let himself be crucified on a hill near Washington, dying for our sins?

Turning the attention on his means is another way to deflect it from the main problem: that NSA and friends run wild on all the routers in the world with no respect for anyone's privacy or human rights. This is the real issue, regardless of whether Snowden is a saint, a prostitute, a Dutch double-agent or an alien with a penchant for bicycles.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#107

Post by caf » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:48 AM UTC

spitx wrote: post #15

onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

None of the bruises? You're arguing that he hasn't paid a substantial personal cost already?

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#108

Post by leephillips » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:48 AM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #4

This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I've read on Snowden's choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is? It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valua…

"It's striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the media speculation on this question (that I've seen) put together."

Perhaps this still qualifies as striking, but it's becoming rapidly more common, as mainstream journalism becomes ever more predictable and imitative, and individuals with expertise and actual insight, not working for news organizations, stand out as the only voices worth paying attention to.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#109

Post by pyre » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:50 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #62

Apocryphon wrote: post #35

I've been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren't they very neutral? Or Switzerland, the nation that's synonymous with neutrality?

Are you serious? New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim Dotcom's home to please American corporations -- not exactly a prime candidate. Sweden is the country currently responsible for Assange's plight. Switzerland, as I said elsewhere, is now an EU state in all but name, and their security services are laughable anyway. What Snowden needs is not "neutrality" in a Cold-War sense. Strictly speaking, no governmen…

  > New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim
  > Dotcom's home to please American corporations
  > -- not exactly a prime candidate.

That has caused a bunch of blow-back in NZ though. I'd say it's up in the air as to whether or not another such incident will occur.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#110

Post by akiselev » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 12:50 AM UTC

nwh wrote: post #43

anonymfus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can patch firmware of your phone you can forge IMEI. Most of phones have IMEI in OTP flash, but with unlocked boot loader modification of code which actually send it to network is usually possible. Many cheap Chinese phones on MTK chipsets produced at non-working time without knowledge of factory owners don't have unique IMEIs, they have all zeroes or all ones in it so user can flash it itself one time; loads…

> produced at non-working time without knowledge of factory owners don't have unique IMEIs I've had odd troubles with USB devices for the same reason; a bunch of them with identical or overlapping serial numbers. I wonder how much of a problem it causes for the operators, I doubt their systems were originally designed to accept duplicate IMEI.

AFAIK the IMEI and IMSI (IMEI for subscribers) are nothing more than client side variables. The telcos have their own internal designations that relate to billing and active connections.